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csmith28
PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2005 4:44 pm    Post subject: New FBI Crime Report Debunks Predictions About End AWB Reply with quote

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New FBI Crime Report Debunks Predictions About End of Semi-Auto Ban

6/7/2005 5:30:00 PM

BELLEVUE, Wash., June 7 /U.S. Newswire/ -- Recently released data from the FBI clearly show that the dire predictions by anti- gunners last fall over the end of the so-called "assault weapons ban" have proven to be groundless, the Second Amendment Foundation (SAF) noted today.

The FBI reported that for the first time since 1999, homicides declined last year 5.4 percent in cities with more than 1 million people, and overall, murders fell 3.6 percent nationwide.

"Anti-gun hysterics have once again been proven wrong in their fear mongering," said SAF Founder Alan Gottlieb. "Their forecasts of blood running in the streets were baseless, and they knew it. However, when you're in a war to crush a Constitutional right, one class of firearms at a time, truth is typically the first casualty."

The ten-year-old Clinton Administration ban on certain semiautomatic firearms expired last September, amid alarmist warnings that violent crime would escalate, including violence against children.

"Here we are as a nation, nine months after the sunset of that onerous law," said SAF President Joe Tartaro, "and all the doom and gloom has been exposed as pure claptrap. Not only are murder rates down, so are the overall rates for violent crime.

"Where is the news media on this," he wondered. "If homicides had gone up, you can be certain that would be making front page headlines, with reporters linking the rise to the end of the ban. But that's not the case, and the mainstream press, with the exception of an April 28 New York Times article, has been pretty quiet about it.

"This is more proof," Tartaro said, "that the rhetoric from anti-gunners is bogus. The press should now question all the other outrageous claims and predictions from the gun control crowd. For example, the Palm Beach Post reported that violent crime in Florida is down while the number of concealed pistol licenses has climbed. Anti-gunners predicted gunfights at traffic stops and cocktail lounges, and that scenario never happened, either.

"The gun control movement is, and always has been, built on a foundation of hysteria and lies," Gottlieb stated. "From their lawsuits against gun makers to their assaults on the firearm civil rights of law-abiding American citizens, these gun grabbers have been deliberately deceitful and consistently wrong."
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zpat
PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2005 9:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

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Meanwhile in the Socialist state of Great Britain (UK) we are not allowed any kind of handgun, not even .22s - which makes competing in the Olympic/Commonwealth pistol events rather difficult.

An entire sport, which already had one of the strongest legal gun ownership controls in the world, has been wiped out.

Armed handgun crime has of course risen since this ban took effect, since murderers are not really bothered about legal gun ownership.

But the Labour government now demonstrates it's total inability to learn from mistakes by introducing a bill to outlaw even replica guns. No doubt airguns will be the next target (and in any case how would you tell the difference between an air pistol and a replica gun?).

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4071848.stm
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bduncan
PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2005 11:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

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Joined: 11 Apr 2001
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That article only states that the homocide rate has not increased. But it makes no mention about things like armed robbery rates. Just because people aren't using assault rifles to kill more people, doesn't mean those weapons aren't being used in greater numbers to commit crimes. It seems to me that a more relevant statistic would be to look at all crimes committed with a firearm of any kind, and then figure out what percentage of those crimes involved one of the banned assault weapons (before the ban expired). Then compare that to the same statistic from today.

One could even make the case that when faced with an AK-47 toting bank robber, a security guard would be less likely to try and stop him, which might actually lead to a drop in the number of firearm related homicides...
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zpat
PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2005 12:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

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One country has an extremely low rate of armed crime, that is Switzerland. And yet I understand that many households are required to keep a semi-automatic assault rifle at home as part of the militia defence arrangements. It's good citizenship that keeps crime down.
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bower5932
PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2005 12:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

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Joined: 27 Aug 2001
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zpat wrote:
It's good citizenship that keeps crime down.


I would agree wholeheartedly with this statement.
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csmith28
PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2005 6:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

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Joined: 15 Jul 2003
Posts: 1196
Location: Arizona

bower5932 wrote:
zpat wrote:
It's good citizenship that keeps crime down.


I would agree wholeheartedly with this statement.


"The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."

It's hilarious to me when the anti-gun/global government/liberal/progressive croud try to claim that the 2nd Amendment of the US Bill of Rights is a collective right reserved for organizations like the National Guard or Law Enforcement while trying to maintane that the other nine amendments protect individual rights.

Yes do explain how Freedom of speach is an individual right while freedom to provide for one's personal defense is not.

Yes, rely on the police for your protection.

Dial 911 then wait 20-60 minutes. The police will arrive just in time to collect evidence of your death. A bullet casing, a bloody knife. How comforting.

Saddly many have been duped into believing that entities like a police department can be their first line of defense from being victimised.

The Police are professionals at this. Oh yes, they are professionals at collecting evidence after a crime has been commited. Occasionally their investigations result in a prosecution but Police are not about protecting individuals. They are all about protecting pretty much everything but individuals.

You are on your own.
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bower5932
PostPosted: Sat Jun 11, 2005 5:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

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csmith28, I'm not sure why I got quoted in your response. All I got out of zpat's statement was that if you have 'good citizenship', you don't have to worry about crimes because they aren't being committed. This may have not been the intent of the statement.

I would like to think that in this context (ie, good people don't commit crimes), then crimes would be down. However, I think we would also agree that we don't always have 'good' people. And I don't even want to begin to get in a discussion on this.

Regardless, enjoy the weekend.
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csmith28
PostPosted: Sat Jun 11, 2005 6:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

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bduncan wrote:
That article only states that the homocide rate has not increased. But it makes no mention about things like armed robbery rates. Just because people aren't using assault rifles to kill more people, doesn't mean those weapons aren't being used in greater numbers to commit crimes. It seems to me that a more relevant statistic would be to look at all crimes committed with a firearm of any kind, and then figure out what percentage of those crimes involved one of the banned assault weapons (before the ban expired). Then compare that to the same statistic from today.


Yes and no,

Homicide rate does include Homicides commited with with weapons like knives, sticks, cars, hammers, screwdrivers, poison, gravity, ropes, chains, hands and guns (even the ones that were recently un-banned.).

However the Anti-Gun crowd would not actually want to see real % of Homicide commited with one of the recently un-banned Assault Weapons because the % was very very small even before the AWB was passed in 1994 even though the anti-gun crowd will happily tell you that Assault Rifles are the "Weapon Of Choice" for criminals.

Well, my vehicle of choice would be a loaded Hum-Vee or a Ferarri but I can't afford one of those so I have to settle for a Nissan Crew Cab but I digress.

They don't want you to know anything useful or factual like that to base your decision on. They'd rather throw out something like in 200* there were only 203 crimes commited with a gun in Canada and in the US there were a gazillion. No mention that in the US there are almost 400 million people as apposed to the less than 33 million in Canada.

Nor is there any mention that in Canada Guns have been largley banned since 1998 (handguns are banned outright and no semi-auto, lever or pump action long guns) so of course they will see a decline in the number of crimes commited with a gun.

However, overall homicide, violent/property crime rates have risen during the same time they just aren't using guns to commit said crime and now since a criminal doesn't have to worry so much about getting his stupid head blown off by the old lady he's about to rob, murder or rape, they are much more emboldened.
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zpat
PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2005 4:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

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More on the Swiss experience:

Back in 1994, when the U.S. Congress was debating whether to ban "assault weapons," a talk show host asked Senator Bill Bradley of New Jersey, a sponsor of the ban, whether guns cause crime. The host noted that, in Switzerland, all males are issued assault rifles for their militia service and are required to keep them at home, yet little crime exists there. Bradley responded: "My guess is--Swiss are pretty dull--so my guess is that probably didn't happen."

Actually, for those who think that target shooting is more fun than golf, Switzerland is anything but "dull." By car or by train, you see shooting ranges all over the country, but only a few golf courses. If there is a Schuetzenfest in town, you will find rifles slung on hat racks in restaurants, and you will encounter men and women, old and young, walking, biking, and taking the tram with rifles over the shoulder, to and from the range. They stroll right past the police station and no one bats an eye (in the U.S. a SWAT Team might do you in).

Tourists--especially those from Japan, where guns are banned to all but the police--think it's a revolution. But shooting is really just the national sport, although it has the deadly serious function of being the backbone of the national defense.

Although there is more per capita firepower in Switzerland than any place in the world, it is one of the safest places to be. To the delight of Americans who support the right to keep and bear arms, Switzerland is the proof in the pudding of the argument that guns don't cause crime.

<some paragraphs skipped>

The bottom line is one of attitude. Populations with training in civic virtue, though armed, generally do not experience sensational massacres or high crime rates. Switzerland fits this mold. But the United States does not. As H. Rap Brown declared in the 1960s, "Violence is as American as apple pie."


http://www.stephenhalbrook.com/wallstreet.html
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csmith28
PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2005 9:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

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Joined: 15 Jul 2003
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bower5932 wrote:
However, I think we would also agree that we don't always have 'good' people. And I don't even want to begin to get in a discussion on this.

Regardless, enjoy the weekend.


Indeed but all anyone ever hears about in our society is all the crime and the bad people. Seldom if ever is there a story of how a crime was prevented or thwarted by a civilian with a firearm but it happens an amazing lot.

The only publication you will see any of this reported is in the monthly NRA Magazines that only members get in which one or two pages are devoted to telling some of the more dramatic of these incidences.

There are an estimated 100 million gun owners in the US and 99.99% of them are responsible good citizens. I happen to be one of them and I associate with a rather large group of other individuals that are the same.

I've own a firearm since I was 8 years old and in 34 years I have not once use a firearm to commit a crime.
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fjb_saper
PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2005 9:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

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Firearms do not kill people; people kill people.

So very true. However the general population at large in the USA and in Switzerland cannot be compared. Civic values are so different as to look alien to each other.

Think about the gun toting lawmen of "When the West was Won"...
Just as a society picture you do have centuries of civic responsibility in Switzerland that are at a complete clash with US culture.

Be assured that roaming bands of bandits like Jesse James, the Dalton Brothers or any other such figures, real or imagined could never have attained the notoriety they enjoy in US culture if they had happened to live in Switzerland and would probably have encountered a very early demise.

There is no such thing as a fair shooting concept in Switzerland. No duel at OK Corral.... The shooters would probably have been shot themselves in the back like animals gone out of control and of which the general population needed to be protected from.

Look at the "Historic example of William Tell". When asked to shoot the apple from his son's head he had two projectiles to the ready. One to shoot the apple, another to kill the tyrant should he fail to hit the apple and kill his son. Thus whatever the outcome the tyrant would have been given a blow.

The equivalent story in western style would be two bullets. One to hit the apple and one to commit suicide with should he kill his son... thus reenforcing the power and abuse of such by the tyrant....

Unless US Citizen embrace all their responsabilities and truely work at a Selfless Service to the population (and we see how that goes in Congress,,,, haven't yet seen the law that would limit personal profit to 3 times the damages but still slap corporations with hefty enough fines as to be dissuasive and award the difference to social programs.... ) there is no chance in hell for the USA to achieve as low a rate of violence (with or without firearms) as Switzerland.

It's all in the 'Tude Dude !!

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zpat
PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2005 10:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

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I think firearms and their owners should be registered and the guns kept in secure storage. That broadly was the position in England until 1997. No-one in their right mind is going to commit a crime with a gun registered to themselves.

But that is exactly the point - due to the action of one or two derranged people (not in their right minds!) - entire classes of guns (all handguns) have been banned (and therefore their use confined to criminals!).

Essentially we have a law (in the UK) designed to suit the insane, not the sane. If that was carried to it's logical conclusion we would all be using plastic cutlery at home (rather like we do on planes).

But in any case, even the insane have never used small-bore target pistols to kill people - yet these are banned. Why not keep them only at the gun ranges and never at home? - there are lots of ways to allow the sport to continue in safety.

However we have a government who thinks that creating hundreds of new laws will make society better. Yet enforcement of existing law is increasingly poor. Narcotics have been illegal for 75 years and yet are available in every town.

Laws that do not command respect cause the loss of respect for the law in general. The Americans are fortunate to have a bill of rights - in Europe we are increasingly living in an Orwellian-like society.
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csmith28
PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2005 11:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

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zpat wrote:
I think firearms and their owners should be registered and the guns kept in secure storage. That broadly was the position in England until 1997. No-one in their right mind is going to commit a crime with a gun registered to themselves.


While that may represent an improvement of the situation in Britain it would not here in the US. Historically registration is always followed by confiscation. Britain, Australia and Canada are just a few examples of this. Once a Government feels it has a sufficient number of firearms registered all they have to do is wait until some deranged fool goes on a rampage.

Then they stoke the public outrage a bit and since they already know where all the legally owned firearms are it's just a matter of collecting them up alegedly for the common good.

Then for a while everything calms down and the government claims success but then gradually wolves in the society's realize what a gift the government has bestowed upon them. Completely (in most aspects) defenseless victims as far as the eye can see all ripe for the picking, robbing, raping or murdering.
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zpat
PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2005 12:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

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True, but the UK had legal, registered handguns without any problems for many, many years. It was a failure to weed out one or two psychopaths that was the problem.

In any case Governments can and do ban unregistered weapons as well -in the UK this has happened with certain air pistols, Tazers, Pepper Sprays etc which are all now illegal to own (but once were uncontrolled).
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