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| csmith28 |
 Posted: Wed Jan 26, 2005 5:44 pm Post subject: Unfortunate sequence of events.... |
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Grand Master
Joined: 15 Jul 2003
Posts: 1196
Location: Arizona
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Recent seemingly un-related events have exposed exactly how vulnerable the USA really is. Points in case:
A homeless guy sacked out in the subway in NYC lights a fire to keep warm. This fire spreads melting thousands of wires knocking out power to scores of signals and switches. The NYC Transit Authority has shut down the C Line indefinitely.
Heavy rain forced unprecedented amount of silt and particulate matter (mud) into water purification facilities in Phoenix, AZ. Of the five available facilities available two were already shutdown for normal maintenance. Two more were shutdown because the filtering systems were clogged with mud. Only one water filtration facility stayed open and the quality of the water from that facility was questionable at best. For three days 1.4 million people were warned to boil their tap water for five to eight minutes before using the water to bathe, drink, cook or brush their teeth. Bottled water disappeared from store shelves in less than 24 hours.
A not so intent on committing suicide parks his SUV on the railroad tracks in Glendale, CA. As a result, a commuter train gets knocked of its track causing it to de-rail a passing freight train. Ten people die and hundreds are (dozen critically) injured.
Tempe, AZ 01/09/05 an un-named visiting professor who flew in from Africa exposes un-countable individuals to measles (otherwise known as rubeola) while on vacation. Nine days after his arrival in Arizona after having visited Sky Harbor International Airport, Arizona State University, the cities of Phoenix, Tempe, Sedona, Flagstaff, Williams, Tusayan and the Grand Canyon National Park he checked himself into the Tempe St.Luke’s Hospital. Nice…
I’m not even gunna get started on the Dirty Bomb Scare in Boston from last week and all the implication of the US having a largely open border with Mexico and Canada.
The events listed above weren’t intentional terrorist attacks but what if they were?
What if the suicidal guy in Glendale had been a terrorist and his SUV was full of explosives?
What if the homeless guy in NY had set of a bomb instead of a fire?
What if the visiting professor was a Muslim Extremist who infected himself with, oh I don’t know Ebola or Small Pox?
What if some one dumped a few gallons of mercury into the canals that feed the water treatment plants of a major city?
Apparently regardless of all the heightened security measures that are now in place no one was able to prevent these tragic events.
Indeed, I don’t know exactly what kind of measures would need to be put in place to prevent things like this from happening but I am sure they would be more despotic than what everyone including myself are now complaining about and more than I could bear.
Where does the protective hand of the government end and personal protection begin?
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Yes, I am an agent of Satan but my duties are largely ceremonial. |
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| jefflowrey |
| Posted: Thu Jan 27, 2005 5:03 am Post subject: |
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Grand Poobah
Joined: 16 Oct 2002
Posts: 19981
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Where does my ability to protect myself from heavily armed neighbors end and the requirement of an armed government begin?
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I am *not* the model of the modern major general. |
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| csmith28 |
| Posted: Thu Jan 27, 2005 8:22 am Post subject: |
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Grand Master
Joined: 15 Jul 2003
Posts: 1196
Location: Arizona
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| jefflowrey wrote: |
| Where does my ability to protect myself from heavily armed neighbors end and the requirement of an armed government begin? |
Well I guess that depends on your neighbors. Are they a violent sort or people? I am heavily armed yet, I pose no threat to my neighbors. 
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Yes, I am an agent of Satan but my duties are largely ceremonial. |
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| jefflowrey |
| Posted: Thu Jan 27, 2005 8:55 am Post subject: |
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Grand Poobah
Joined: 16 Oct 2002
Posts: 19981
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It does exactly depend on your neighbors.
And just because you don't believe that you are a threat to your neighbors doesn't imply anything about their feelings on the matter.
Nor does either of this apply to their ability to defend themselves from you - just their willingness or desire.
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I am *not* the model of the modern major general. |
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| csmith28 |
| Posted: Thu Jan 27, 2005 4:59 pm Post subject: |
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Grand Master
Joined: 15 Jul 2003
Posts: 1196
Location: Arizona
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Well then, if they feel that I am a threat and it is neccessary to protect themselves from me, in spite of the fact that I have never acted agressively toward them and they are clueless about my extensive gun collection.
Fortunatly they live in a state in which they can purchase any legally possessed weapon (not including weapons regulated by the National Firearms Act) they want without a waiting period or having to register said weapon with Law Enforcement or Government Authorities.
But then I suppose I phrased the question wrong. In retrospect what I was trying to say was, where does the protective hand of Government end and individual freedom begin?
However, on the topic of self protection and individual freedom it is rather apparent that the Protective Hand of Government has grossly over stepped it's bounds in many places including here in the United States.
The irony in this is that all the places where ownership of weapons is most despotically regulated also have the highest violent crime rates.
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Yes, I am an agent of Satan but my duties are largely ceremonial. |
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| fjb_saper |
| Posted: Thu Jan 27, 2005 5:33 pm Post subject: |
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Grand High Poobah
Joined: 18 Nov 2003
Posts: 20756
Location: LI,NY
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Sorry but I'll have to contradict you violently on this.
In Europe ownership of guns is very strictly regulated and the violent crime rate is not astronomically greater than in the US.
In fact it is where the guns are not strictly regulated that the crime is highest.
If it is so difficult to get a gun (including on the "black market") that ownership of a gun makes you stand out, a lot less of violent crimes due to gunfire are noticed. (A lot less of drive by killings)
People who still feel the need/urge for violence will use other means (knives etc...)
Enjoy an internationalistic view.  |
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| csmith28 |
| Posted: Thu Jan 27, 2005 7:11 pm Post subject: |
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Grand Master
Joined: 15 Jul 2003
Posts: 1196
Location: Arizona
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I beg to differ.
Since 1997 when the UK enacted legislation that banned civilian possession/ownership of all handguns, most rifles and all but single shot shotguns the violent crime rate has risen 69% including a 45% increase in Armed Robberies and a 54% increase in murder.
These increases in violent are being repeated in both Canada and Australia.
Meanwhile here in the United States civilian firearm ownership continues to rise. In the areas where gun ownership is highest the violent crime rates have been dropping at dramatic rates especially in state that have passed Right to Carry Concealed Weapons legislation.
The flaw in the Gun Control Logic is that all it accomplishes is the creation of a large pool of defenseless potential victims. All the Law Abiding population turn in their firearms in compliance with the Law while the criminals do the Dr. Evil laugh.
Ohh sure assuming you have a working phone available, you can call the police if your attacked but the average response time for emergency police calls world wide is about 18 minutes.
Without a firearm, how long would you like to have to defend yourself from an attacker armed with a knife?
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| JT |
| Posted: Thu Jan 27, 2005 7:54 pm Post subject: |
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Padawan
Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 1564
Location: Hartford, CT.
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| Quote: |
| Without a firearm, how long would you like to have to defend yourself from an attacker armed with a knife? |
Exactly one swing with my Lousiville Slugger baseball bat (33"/33 oz.) |
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| csmith28 |
| Posted: Fri Jan 28, 2005 12:54 am Post subject: |
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Grand Master
Joined: 15 Jul 2003
Posts: 1196
Location: Arizona
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| JT wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Without a firearm, how long would you like to have to defend yourself from an attacker armed with a knife? |
Exactly one swing with my Lousiville Slugger baseball bat (33"/33 oz.) |
I hope your wife and children(if you have such) are as adept at swinging that bat as you are.
I appreciate your enthusiasm, really I do but you and your family will be lucky if all the assailant has is a knife. You will also be lucky if there is only one of them.
Criminals are notorious for ignoring things like laws. That was the point.
You know, this is all hypothetical. Nobody really has to worry about being attacked. That sort of thing only happens to other people, right....
That is what most people would like to think. Most people think, as long as I lock my door at night and mind my own business nothing like that will happen to me. The truth is most of them are right. Statistically the vast majority of people will never be assaulted or involved in a violent crime.
The problem is that the vast majority of the people who are assaulted are people who think they will never be assaulted. They are not in the least bit prepared to defend themselves because they have been lulled into thinking that there is no need to prepare or protect themselves from such assaults.
We're like this gigantic herd of sheep who depend on the Herd (Police) Dogs to protect us.
Problem is the police don't protect people, they just arrest suspects after the fact.
You watch the show Cops?
Who doesn't?
It's great, the police arrive, chase and apprehend suspects, gather weapons and other evidence, take statements from whitnesses, watch the paramedics administer medical aid and load the victims that survived into the ambulances. Well someone has to do it.
When was the last time you saw a cop prevent a crime?
When was the last time a Law Prevented a Crime?
How long has it been illegal to commit murder?
Has the fact that murder is illegal prevented any criminal intent on killing from murdering anyone.
Admittedly a reasonable person understands. Even without legislation that murdering people is wrong but....
is it safe?
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At the one lane bridge I leave the Giants standing at the river side.
Race back to the farm to dream with my uncle at the fire side.
_________________
Yes, I am an agent of Satan but my duties are largely ceremonial.
Last edited by csmith28 on Fri Jan 28, 2005 10:45 am; edited 1 time in total |
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| PGoodhart |
| Posted: Fri Jan 28, 2005 5:14 am Post subject: |
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Master
Joined: 17 Jun 2004
Posts: 278
Location: Harrisburg PA
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"The Law does not protect the innocent, it only punishes the guilty."
"The Individual must protect himself or herself."
And the following ought to be in the international human rights convention:
"The right to protect oneself shall not be infringed."
"How one choses to protect oneself is ones own business."
Realistically the perception that America is violent place is due to three factors:
1. In the late 1970's most of the institutions that previously house the dangerously insane were closed due to funding cuts. (Thanks Jimmy) Mass murders and serial killings didn't happen much previously because the insane were incarcerated, not medicated.
2. The international media is violently antiamerican and anticapitalist. The American media is liberal and low. The relish ratings and money more then anything, so a flashy story always makes the news. I still see the "Murder in Pondunk" story every night. You know the small town shattered by violence story, which is the first murder in 10 years (which is statisically normal), and was actually on the highway between big city A and big city B.
3. The international drug trade moved in bigtime in the 1980's and early 1990's into the big cities (Boston, Detroit, Philly, Atlanta, Houston, San Francisco, Miami, etc) which made the cities battlegrounds. Most of the intercity violent crime is due to drug sales and turf wars.
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Patrick Goodhart
MQ Admin/Web Developer/Consultant
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| fjb_saper |
| Posted: Fri Jan 28, 2005 3:21 pm Post subject: |
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Grand High Poobah
Joined: 18 Nov 2003
Posts: 20756
Location: LI,NY
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Patrick
I wholeheartedly agree with you. You make my point.
People will commit violent crimes no matter what.
However very strict gun control with the ability to enforce it will lower the number of victims.
It may not be easy to defend yourself against an assailliant with a knife.
It is far more difficult to avoid being a victim in a drive by shooting.
Let's make it impossible for the criminals to get guns
on the legal market as well as on the black market.
And let's face it. If you are a law abiding citizen with a gun the likelyhood that you'll use successfully in your defense is very low. By the time you shoot the criminal he's shot you and gets another gun from your body...
Guns do not kill people. People kill people.
But people use guns to kill people so if the guns are unavailable they'll have to resort to other means.
Other countries have guns too. Hunting guns. You cannot legally sell weapons as it is possible in the States...
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| csmith28 |
| Posted: Fri Jan 28, 2005 3:30 pm Post subject: |
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Grand Master
Joined: 15 Jul 2003
Posts: 1196
Location: Arizona
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| fjb_saper wrote: |
However very strict gun control with the ability to enforce it will lower the number of victims. |
No it won't. For example prohibition didn't work. In fact it had the opposite of the desired affect. Oh and how about the War on Drugs, thats going well.
| Quote: |
Let's make it impossible for the criminals to get guns
on the legal market as well as on the black market.
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Exaclty how do you propose to do that? How do you propose to regulate the black market?
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Yes, I am an agent of Satan but my duties are largely ceremonial. |
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| fjb_saper |
| Posted: Fri Jan 28, 2005 3:37 pm Post subject: |
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Grand High Poobah
Joined: 18 Nov 2003
Posts: 20756
Location: LI,NY
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| csmith28 wrote: |
No it won't. For example prohibition didn't work. In fact it had the opposite of the desired effect. Oh and how about the War on Drugs, thats going well. |
If you fight a battle with both hands tied behind your back how do you expect to win ?
| csmith28 wrote: |
| fjb_saper wrote: |
Let's make it impossible for the criminals to get guns
on the legal market as well as on the black market.
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Exaclty how do you propose to do that? How do you propose to regulate the black market? |
How about a federal statute enforced throughout all 50 States.
How about not turning the head when somebody buys guns that are not for hunting.
How about making all guns not for hunting illegal and melting them down when seized instead of reselling them (sometimes the police resell seized weapons -- makes good money...)
Enjoy |
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| csmith28 |
| Posted: Fri Jan 28, 2005 3:55 pm Post subject: |
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Grand Master
Joined: 15 Jul 2003
Posts: 1196
Location: Arizona
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| fjb_saper wrote: |
| csmith28 wrote: |
No it won't. For example prohibition didn't work. In fact it had the opposite of the desired effect. Oh and how about the War on Drugs, thats going well. |
If you fight a battle with both hands tied behind your back how do you expect to win ?
| csmith28 wrote: |
| fjb_saper wrote: |
Let's make it impossible for the criminals to get guns
on the legal market as well as on the black market.
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Exaclty how do you propose to do that? How do you propose to regulate the black market? |
How about a federal statute enforced throughout all 50 States.
How about not turning the head when somebody buys guns that are not for hunting.
How about making all guns not for hunting illegal and melting them down when seized instead of reselling them (sometimes the police resell seized weapons -- makes good money...)
Enjoy |
Odd thing about criminals they have a contact admin habbit of ingnoring things like statutes and stuff....
How about that Second Amendment thingy and the rest of the Bill of Rights. 
The Second Amendment isn't about hunting.
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Yes, I am an agent of Satan but my duties are largely ceremonial. |
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| jefflowrey |
| Posted: Fri Jan 28, 2005 4:07 pm Post subject: |
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Grand Poobah
Joined: 16 Oct 2002
Posts: 19981
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| csmith28 wrote: |
| The Second Amendment isn't about hunting. |
Nor is it about private, individual owernship of firearms. 
It's about the right of the individual States to raise militias. 
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