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| paustin_ours |
 Posted: Sun Oct 25, 2015 2:46 pm Post subject: head hurts - ipaas? openstack? |
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Yatiri
Joined: 19 May 2004
Posts: 667
Location: columbus,oh
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someone give me my weekend back. I ventured into reading about cloud integration and one thing lead to another and i have spent entire weekend staring at my computer screen.
Things of particular interest were ipass. Also read an article on how traditional on-premise esb solutions might be a thing of the past soon and how traditional tools/softwares are not keeping up with moving trends at least in terms of cloud adoption.
wonder what the roadmap for message broker would be and how message broker would fit in cloud integration. I dont even know if i know enough to ask the right questions but figured i will just throw it out there see what others thought on this subject. |
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| smdavies99 |
| Posted: Sun Oct 25, 2015 11:09 pm Post subject: |
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Jedi Council
Joined: 10 Feb 2003
Posts: 6076
Location: Somewhere over the Rainbow this side of Never-never land.
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Data on an off-site system (cloud or hosted) is not your data any more.
If is on the premises of a 3rd party. They could walk off with it wothout you knowing.
Then there is the dependency upon the links to said cloud/hosting site from your premises.
The fact that JCB/Backhoe digger drivers seem to have a magnetic attraction to Telecome & Power cables is well known.
My customers would never contemplate using such a service. The latest ITT even goes so far as to say, 'solutions using off-site hosting or cloud will be excluded'.
Other companies/industrties may have reasons to use them but for anyone to say that everything will be in the cloud is silly (or they work for a cloud supplier)
Remember ther around 10 years ago these same 'gurus' were predicting that everything was going to be SOA(http/https webservices) by 2012.
Now ask that question again?
_________________
WMQ User since 1999
MQSI/WBI/WMB/'Thingy' User since 2002
Linux user since 1995
Every time you reinvent the wheel the more square it gets (anon). If in doubt think and investigate before you ask silly questions. |
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| bruce2359 |
| Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2015 3:52 am Post subject: |
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Poobah
Joined: 05 Jan 2008
Posts: 9469
Location: US: west coast, almost. Otherwise, enroute.
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Like your data, application code written or maintained (hosted) offsite is no longer yours - except in a legal sense. Once compromised (lost or stolen), you have nothing - except perhaps legal recourse.
_________________
I like deadlines. I like to wave as they pass by.
ב''ה
Lex Orandi, Lex Credendi, Lex Vivendi. As we Worship, So we Believe, So we Live. |
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| Vitor |
| Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2015 5:22 am Post subject: Re: head hurts - ipaas? openstack? |
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Grand High Poobah
Joined: 11 Nov 2005
Posts: 26093
Location: Texas, USA
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| paustin_ours wrote: |
| wonder what the roadmap for message broker would be and how message broker would fit in cloud integration. |
Well anybody on this forum who knows the IBM roadmap won't be allowed to tell us (!). My 2 cents:
IIB is clearly going to move into the cloud worlds (IaaS / PaaS); it's clearly the Next Big Thing so IBM will move into it like they move into all NBT. IIB & MQ already have integration with cloud provisioning tools like Chef and Puppet, and I think the next step will be "shrink wrapped" IIB and MQ (I would imagine using Docker or some such container).
One thing I'd like to throw out there. I agree with my worthy associate that running sensitive data and/or critical business services in a public cloud is something a lot of companies are going to view with a huge amount of suspicion (my employers being one such customer - we're a financial group). At the same time, we're going flat out designing a in-premise ("private") cloud in which WAS, MQ & IIB will float around like fluffy white house bricks and we still get the flexibility, scaling, and of cloud benefits while keeping everything inside the firewall.
There's talk (down the road) of going "hybrid" and having less sensitive stuff processed off premise in a public cloud, or using a public cloud for peak load (e.g. credit cards on Black Friday - non-Americans please Google). I'll believe that when I see it, but the advantage of building a fluffy white house bricks is it's easy to push one off onto another site.
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Honesty is the best policy.
Insanity is the best defence. |
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| bruce2359 |
| Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2015 5:33 am Post subject: |
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Poobah
Joined: 05 Jan 2008
Posts: 9469
Location: US: west coast, almost. Otherwise, enroute.
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Define "cloud."
One definition is "elsewhere," as in "data/apps reside outside the domain which I control.
Another definition is "resources on demand," as in "if you need another instance of x (qmgr, o/s, ...), one will be created for you automatically."
A non-technical definition (works with my wife and friends) is "a big mainframe somewhere."
_________________
I like deadlines. I like to wave as they pass by.
ב''ה
Lex Orandi, Lex Credendi, Lex Vivendi. As we Worship, So we Believe, So we Live. |
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| Vitor |
| Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2015 5:46 am Post subject: |
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Grand High Poobah
Joined: 11 Nov 2005
Posts: 26093
Location: Texas, USA
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| bruce2359 wrote: |
| Define "cloud." |
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| bruce2359 wrote: |
| Another definition is "resources on demand," as in "if you need another instance of x (qmgr, o/s, ...), one will be created for you automatically." |
Define "the domain which I control". I currently don't control the network my data flows along, the databases I store it in or the servers I run on; they're all owned by different teams. How is that different from a public cloud where the "team" that owns them is in fact a different legal entity?
Which is of course the question that the lawyers will need to answer, and the key source of angst currently (certainly in my little world - my employers see a very clear distinction!).
"A big mainframe somewhere" is what I was writing COBOL on in the 1980s. Kit has been "somewhere" for decades.
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Honesty is the best policy.
Insanity is the best defence. |
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| bruce2359 |
| Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2015 6:08 am Post subject: |
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Poobah
Joined: 05 Jan 2008
Posts: 9469
Location: US: west coast, almost. Otherwise, enroute.
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"...that I control" means that I have some influence over procedure, security and operations. With cloud in India, for example, I have none of these.
"mainframe" simply means "server" which means "a big(ger) computer."
COBOL still lives, and lives at lots of big shops.
_________________
I like deadlines. I like to wave as they pass by.
ב''ה
Lex Orandi, Lex Credendi, Lex Vivendi. As we Worship, So we Believe, So we Live. |
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| paustin_ours |
| Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2015 6:15 am Post subject: |
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Yatiri
Joined: 19 May 2004
Posts: 667
Location: columbus,oh
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| Vitor |
| Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2015 6:37 am Post subject: |
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Grand High Poobah
Joined: 11 Nov 2005
Posts: 26093
Location: Texas, USA
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| bruce2359 wrote: |
| "...that I control" means that I have some influence over procedure, security and operations. With cloud in India, for example, I have none of these. |
It's no different, conceptually, to outsourced data centers, and people have been doing that for years. The people that kept their data centers in house are probably the people who are going to less than keen on public cloud, and for the same reasons.
That's why I did the paragraph about "public cloud" and "private cloud", and my definition of "cloud". I think I'm correct in saying IBM have an offering where they'll run a cloud (manage, maintain, control) on your in-house hardware. Is that public, private, 3rd part or what?
Cloud is a provisioning concept. Not a location.
| bruce2359 wrote: |
"mainframe" simply means "server" which means "a big(ger) computer."
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I can hear the z/OS people sharpening the knives.
| bruce2359 wrote: |
| COBOL still lives, and lives at lots of big shops. |
Including mine. We have a number of flows that earn a living converting COBOL copybook formats.
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Honesty is the best policy.
Insanity is the best defence. |
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| Vitor |
| Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2015 6:47 am Post subject: |
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Grand High Poobah
Joined: 11 Nov 2005
Posts: 26093
Location: Texas, USA
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| paustin_ours wrote: |
| what do you guys think of this article. I know it is from a cloud vendor but are the arguments made make sense? |
I don't think there's anything new in it. A full on ESB is hard to build right, the world's moved from SOAP/XML to REST/JSON and now we've got flexible provisioning. These have been facts for some time.
| paustin_ours wrote: |
| i still dont understand why a on premise esb is not a good fit for cloud. |
It's not a good fit for his off-premise public cloud clearly, or he wouldn't have written the article! 
IMHO the same principles apply no matter where you're hosting your stuff. You need to think about topology, you need to think about traffic, you need to think about security. What I believe a number of my associates are talking about (with some justification I think) is the tendency for senior management to decide that they can save a fortune using cloud (because that's what it said in the management seminar / in-flight magazine) and just hump their entire IT operation to some cloud vendor in India, pausing only to pick up their golf clubs on the way out as a reward for a day well managed.
You need to think about these things. Plan them. Design them. As I said above, we're putting a lot into cloud, and the kind of agile support the article author mentioned, and the ESB / Integration layer has to be part of that. So it is.
_________________
Honesty is the best policy.
Insanity is the best defence. |
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| exerk |
| Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2015 7:01 am Post subject: |
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Jedi Council
Joined: 02 Nov 2006
Posts: 6339
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And bearing in mind that the US DoJ maintains that some personal emails on a Microsoft Hotmail server in EIRE - personal in the sense that an individual is using Hotmail - are Microsoft business records and therefore subject to being handed over now thank you very much, irrespective of safe-harbour agreements etc.
Cloud is always going to be a contentious issue - I don't keep anything important 'up there' and I'd like to think that companies that do have any of my data would take the same approach - TalkTalk (UK telecomms provider) anyone?
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It's puzzling, I don't think I've ever seen anything quite like this before...and it's hard to soar like an eagle when you're surrounded by turkeys. |
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| Vitor |
| Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2015 7:09 am Post subject: |
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Grand High Poobah
Joined: 11 Nov 2005
Posts: 26093
Location: Texas, USA
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| exerk wrote: |
| Cloud is always going to be a contentious issue - I don't keep anything important 'up there' |
I'm going to keep talking about private clouds until someone accepts that not all cloud is "up there". Or I'm going to start taking hostages.
| exerk wrote: |
| and I'd like to think that companies that do have any of my data would take the same approach - TalkTalk (UK telecomms provider) anyone? |
As I keep saying, we are taking exactly that approach while still building a cloud solution.
_________________
Honesty is the best policy.
Insanity is the best defence. |
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| exerk |
| Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2015 7:12 am Post subject: |
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Jedi Council
Joined: 02 Nov 2006
Posts: 6339
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| Vitor wrote: |
| I'm going to keep talking about private clouds until someone accepts that not all cloud is "up there"... |
But if it's on-premises but run by a provider, just how private it is it?
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It's puzzling, I don't think I've ever seen anything quite like this before...and it's hard to soar like an eagle when you're surrounded by turkeys. |
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| Vitor |
| Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2015 7:49 am Post subject: |
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Grand High Poobah
Joined: 11 Nov 2005
Posts: 26093
Location: Texas, USA
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| exerk wrote: |
| Vitor wrote: |
| I'm going to keep talking about private clouds until someone accepts that not all cloud is "up there"... |
But if it's on-premises but run by a provider, just how private it is it? |
Do you not trust IBM?
And the cloud we're building here is entirely private - it's our people, our hardware, our network.
_________________
Honesty is the best policy.
Insanity is the best defence. |
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| bruce2359 |
| Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2015 8:07 am Post subject: |
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Poobah
Joined: 05 Jan 2008
Posts: 9469
Location: US: west coast, almost. Otherwise, enroute.
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So, what's the definition of cloud??
_________________
I like deadlines. I like to wave as they pass by.
ב''ה
Lex Orandi, Lex Credendi, Lex Vivendi. As we Worship, So we Believe, So we Live. |
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