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| Do developers have WMQ admin privileges at your shop? |
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| Do developers have WMQ admin privileges at your shop? |
| No! |
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58% |
[ 10 ] |
| Yes, in test, qa and prod - everywhere |
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11% |
[ 2 ] |
| Yes, in test and qa; but NOT prod |
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11% |
[ 2 ] |
| Yes, in test only |
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17% |
[ 3 ] |
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| Total Votes : 17 |
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| Author |
Message
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| bruce2359 |
 Posted: Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:25 am Post subject: |
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Poobah
Joined: 05 Jan 2008
Posts: 9475
Location: US: west coast, almost. Otherwise, enroute.
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| lancelotlinc wrote: |
| Bruce's question is directed at MQ objects. |
... and includes securing those objects.
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| lancelotlinc |
| Posted: Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:26 am Post subject: |
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Jedi Knight
Joined: 22 Mar 2010
Posts: 4941
Location: Bloomington, IL USA
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@Bruce
This is true. That is why there is a need for a Sandbox. Dev should have security enforced; Sandbox should not.
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| bruce2359 |
| Posted: Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:39 am Post subject: |
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Poobah
Joined: 05 Jan 2008
Posts: 9475
Location: US: west coast, almost. Otherwise, enroute.
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What is the purpose of the sandbox for developers? Just to play? To try this and that? To develop applications? To understand WMQ admin? How does sandbox differ from test?
I may be way out of line here, but I expect developers to have basic WMQ knowledge. This can be obtained by:
IBM offers a 1-day technical introduction to WMQ. IBM also offers a 3-day class hands-on class WMQ application development class.
_________________
I like deadlines. I like to wave as they pass by.
ב''ה
Lex Orandi, Lex Credendi, Lex Vivendi. As we Worship, So we Believe, So we Live. |
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| exerk |
| Posted: Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:52 am Post subject: |
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Jedi Council
Joined: 02 Nov 2006
Posts: 6339
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| lancelotlinc wrote: |
@Bruce
This is true. That is why there is a need for a Sandbox. Dev should have security enforced; Sandbox should not. |
And so they develop against no security (userid in the mqm group etc.) and of course the script includes NO setmqaut commands, or they are doing something squirrelly such as altusr, which is not allowed in the 'proper' environments, but they used because it got them around a particular hurdle, and of course they were going to remove it but it just got lost in the rush to the dead-line...
I'm very firmly in bruce2359's camp on this one, because if nothing else I don't want developers wasting their time doing something that works fine in the sand-box but doesn't translate to the 'reality' of other environments - not least because I know whose 'fault' that will be.
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It's puzzling, I don't think I've ever seen anything quite like this before...and it's hard to soar like an eagle when you're surrounded by turkeys. |
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| fatherjack |
| Posted: Mon Jan 10, 2011 8:01 am Post subject: |
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Knight
Joined: 14 Apr 2010
Posts: 522
Location: Craggy Island
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A couple of points:
1) Surely the important thing here is not whether developers have MQ admin rights in a sandbox and not dev or in dev and not system test or ...... etc. etc. but rather it is that there is an end to end lifecycle process clearly defined, documented and adhered to that describes exacly what the purpose of each environment is and who can and cannot do what in each environment and how stuff gets promoted between environments etc.
2) It's interesting that the highest number of votes to date is for zero MQ Admin access for developers in any environment. The organisation I currently work for is very flexible re. working arrangements and people can often work from home on their laptops. So the message broker developers have an entire environment loaded on their laptops - WMB toolkit and runtime, Database & MQ. Do you, as MQ Admins, really want to look after all of the MQ installations on these laptops ?
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Never let the facts get in the way of a good theory. |
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| lancelotlinc |
| Posted: Mon Jan 10, 2011 8:02 am Post subject: |
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Jedi Knight
Joined: 22 Mar 2010
Posts: 4941
Location: Bloomington, IL USA
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A sandbox is a temporary or indefinite isolation area environment that hosts untested code changes and outright experimentation from the Dev environment.
There are things you can do in Sandbox that you cannot in other environments for chiefly two reasons: (1) other environments are more strict in the security applied and (2) other people depend on those other environments to be in a consistent state with a reference architecture (usually Dev is refreshed to Prod config nightly).
It is desireable for developers to do preliminary vetting of their theories before checking their code into source code repository. Some out-of-the-box thinking is not realizable and you don't want these attempts to be constructive to make their way into the source code stream. Sandbox is the ideal place to vet.
Sandboxes replicate at least the minimal functionality needed to accurately test the programs or other code under development (e.g. usage of the same environment variables as, or access to an identical database to that used by, the stable prior implementation intended to be modified; there are many other possibilities, as the specific functionality needs vary widely with the nature of the code and the applications for which it is intended.)
Only after the developer has fully tested the code changes in their own sandbox should the changes be checked back into and merged with the repository and thereby made available to other developers or end users of the software.
As Vitor and I have thoroughly discussed before, to each his own. If you want something, you have to fight for it. Stand up and make an argument. Companies who spend millions is license fees and maintenance fees, and developer salaries would not hesitate to spend a couple hundred thousand on process improvement if the right business justification existed.
To each his own. I'm not the King of the World, and don't mandate that all people follow this Best Practice.
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| exerk |
| Posted: Mon Jan 10, 2011 8:21 am Post subject: |
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Jedi Council
Joined: 02 Nov 2006
Posts: 6339
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| fatherjack wrote: |
| So the message broker developers have an entire environment loaded on their laptops - WMB toolkit and runtime, Database & MQ. Do you, as MQ Admins, really want to look after all of the MQ installations on these laptops ? |
No, which is why I try and operate on the "...you crash and burn it, my recovery efforts are best endeavours only..." principle - which is why they get VM's and snap-shot maintenance is their responsibility.
| lancelotlinc wrote: |
| Sandboxes replicate at least the minimal functionality needed to accurately test the programs or other code under development |
Most sand-boxes I've encountered are nothing of the sort, but merely a stub that provides minimal functionality of the middleware suites etc. The developers I've worked with over the years either create their own database etc. if needed, or have 'manufactured' a test stub that mimics what they need 'on the other end'.
| lancelotlinc wrote: |
| Companies who spend millions is license fees and maintenance fees, and developer salaries would not hesitate to spend a couple hundred thousand on process improvement if the right business justification existed. |
Sorry, but no. large companies will try to shave money wherever they can. It never ceases to amaze me that money will be spent on tin, software, development etc. but there is zero budget for the grease for the wheels as their definition of process improvement is cutting budget and without spending to do so - but they always find it for the leather club armchairs in the executive office waiting room - or maybe I'm just an old cynic.
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It's puzzling, I don't think I've ever seen anything quite like this before...and it's hard to soar like an eagle when you're surrounded by turkeys. |
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| lancelotlinc |
| Posted: Mon Jan 10, 2011 8:37 am Post subject: |
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Jedi Knight
Joined: 22 Mar 2010
Posts: 4941
Location: Bloomington, IL USA
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For my clients, its gotten even easier to obtain sandbox environments with the advent of cloud infrastructure. For example, there are blade servers in a handful of datacenters that can be allocated to a project for a set time, number of years. You get what looks like a standard PC, accessible by secure telnet, secure ftp, and any other port you open. You can install any runtime you want on it, such as WMB or WMQ. You can choose Red Hat Enterprise Linux, IBM AIX, or Windows Server as your OSs.
The clients I work with, typically larger insurance companies, credit card processors, and banks, understand and buy into the concept. I realize that smaller clients would not.
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| Vitor |
| Posted: Mon Jan 10, 2011 9:07 am Post subject: |
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Grand High Poobah
Joined: 11 Nov 2005
Posts: 26093
Location: Texas, USA
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| lancelotlinc wrote: |
| The clients I work with, typically larger insurance companies, credit card processors, and banks, understand and buy into the concept. I realize that smaller clients would not. |
At the risk of repeating myself, you'd be amazed how many large insurance firms, credit card compainies, bank & investment houses don't buy into it either.
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Honesty is the best policy.
Insanity is the best defence. |
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| lancelotlinc |
| Posted: Mon Jan 10, 2011 9:15 am Post subject: |
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Jedi Knight
Joined: 22 Mar 2010
Posts: 4941
Location: Bloomington, IL USA
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The ROI on cloud infrastructure is astronomical. Most banker types realize this. You may know some, but I have yet to run into any that would not support a good business case. Live like you dream. If we fail to dream, we only defeat ourselves.
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| exerk |
| Posted: Mon Jan 10, 2011 10:11 am Post subject: |
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Jedi Council
Joined: 02 Nov 2006
Posts: 6339
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| lancelotlinc wrote: |
| The ROI on cloud infrastructure is astronomical. |
And the point that both Vitor and I are making is that getting them to do the 'I' in the first place is the most difficult aspect, and the banker types at the installation I'm working at don't seem to care - they've outsourced, so the infrastructure exists within a somebody-else's-problem field, and take the Star Trek school of management approach, i.e. "...No. 1, make it so...". All they want is infrastructure that works, and don't care how, all the provider wants is to do everything much-cheapness. Once outsourcing is involved, the provider is NOT going to invest in anything more than it has to, or will find ways of trying to make the customer pay for it, which of course the customer feels they already have, so it's round-and-round in circles as usual.
_________________
It's puzzling, I don't think I've ever seen anything quite like this before...and it's hard to soar like an eagle when you're surrounded by turkeys. |
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| bruce2359 |
| Posted: Mon Jan 10, 2011 10:15 am Post subject: |
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Poobah
Joined: 05 Jan 2008
Posts: 9475
Location: US: west coast, almost. Otherwise, enroute.
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Let me clarify.
I did not include sandbox in the poll list. I don't believe sandbox is in the hierarchy of application development, testing, qa, and production.
I encourage developers to install WMQ (and other products) on their personal laptops. I've implemented mainframe sandbox-equivalent CICS instances on mainframes, too. The express purpose is for hands-on experimentation with new products. Tinkering, if you will. The express disclaimer is that IT takes minimal responsibility for ongoing support of that environment - creating the sandbox, and a bit of training.
With this in mind, real development of app code, objects and security, takes place in TEST.
_________________
I like deadlines. I like to wave as they pass by.
ב''ה
Lex Orandi, Lex Credendi, Lex Vivendi. As we Worship, So we Believe, So we Live. |
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| lancelotlinc |
| Posted: Mon Jan 10, 2011 10:35 am Post subject: |
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Jedi Knight
Joined: 22 Mar 2010
Posts: 4941
Location: Bloomington, IL USA
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This discussion makes alot more sense to me now that we realize the differences between mainframe development and distributed systems development. 21st Century developers don't mind buying PCs to write code on. And a cloudified blade server Sandbox instance is only about ten cents per hour of use. I see now why mainframe developers are not understanding the benefit of Sandbox and why its such a big deal for them to get approval for expenditures. Its just too costly for the mainframe platform.
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| Vitor |
| Posted: Mon Jan 10, 2011 10:44 am Post subject: |
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Grand High Poobah
Joined: 11 Nov 2005
Posts: 26093
Location: Texas, USA
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| lancelotlinc wrote: |
| I see now why mainframe developers are not understanding the benefit of Sandbox and why its such a big deal for them to get approval for expenditures. |
Ouch.
As my associate has pointed out, developers and even administration types like myself understand the benefits just fine. It's a big deal for us to get approval for expenditure because typically we don't control the budgets, and those that do tend to be cheese-paring the money.
Maybe that's a hold over from the days when management authorizing new IT meant buying new mainframe, and hence big bucks. I don't know. More likely it's just trying to save a few cents because it looks good short term and best practice go hang.
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Honesty is the best policy.
Insanity is the best defence. |
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| fatherjack |
| Posted: Mon Jan 10, 2011 11:36 am Post subject: |
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Knight
Joined: 14 Apr 2010
Posts: 522
Location: Craggy Island
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| lancelotlinc wrote: |
| The ROI on cloud infrastructure is astronomical. Most banker types realize this. You may know some, but I have yet to run into any that would not support a good business case. Live like you dream. If we fail to dream, we only defeat ourselves. |
If only! In the recent past i've worked at 3 major financial services institutions in the UK and this doesn't apply to any of them.
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Never let the facts get in the way of a good theory. |
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