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| Behavior on This WebSite |
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| SAFraser |
 Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 10:04 am Post subject: Behavior on This WebSite |
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Shaman
Joined: 22 Oct 2003
Posts: 742
Location: Austin, Texas, USA
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All right, I have had it with some of the masters and grandmasters on this site. This recent thread, http://www.mqseries.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=35083, embarrasses me. The phrases "....jobs they can't do" and "....get what you pay for" are insulting.
Regarding the above referenced topic, I can tell you that I (an MQ admin) am expected to supply Unix startup scripts. You can huff and puff all you want about it not being a proper job description or about me being inadequate for the task ("get what you pay for"?), but it doesn't change the reality of what the organization expects me to provide.
I have a circle of associates who are also MQ administrators. Not ONE of them will post to this site because of the frequent flaming. That is a shame because of couple of them are real MQ experts and could add a lot to the knowledge base of this site. I participate in several other technical forums and I do not see similar behavior.
Sometimes a newbie asks a question, and they are gently/firmly referred to the documentation with a nice URL to get them started. That's fine with me. Sometimes they are politely asked for more information, which is also just dandy. Sometimes they are really out-of-line and they get ignored, which they richly deserve.
But more often, a desperate newbie is not asking for us to do his job; he is asking for a pointer, a clue, a hint-- a starting place. And he is flamed.
I have debated about simply leaving MQSeries.net, but why should I? I feel guilty standing by and watching the abuse we sometimes heap on unsuspecting newbies; we are a cooperative community and we must govern ourselves. I truly doubt I am the only member who is bothered by this behavior.
I may start a firestorm with this post. I may regret clicking "submit". But my conscience is making me do it.
Shirley |
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| jefflowrey |
| Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 10:33 am Post subject: |
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Grand Poobah
Joined: 16 Oct 2002
Posts: 19981
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Yeah. I'll take that heat.
Some of these people really are asking us to do their job for them.
I've given good, solid pointers to people, and been as helpful as I could possibly be, and had them turn around in private and demand more help and inform me that they are going to get fired if I don't solve their problem for free.
And when I've just put direct links to the Info center in ten posts, and responded to someone else with a comment that says it's addressed in the Info Center. And then that person asks "Where's the Info Center?"....
But also remember that you can't tell tone and intonation from text. I might say something that is perfectly reasonable and professional - but not directly helpful - and the person I'm replying to could decide that I've got the flamethrower running at full power.
I know that what you're really advocating is a widespread "If you don't have something nice to say, don't say anything at all" policy.
It's a good idea.
Also, you can always try ameliorating the problem by responding to the flamees with helpful advice.
_________________
I am *not* the model of the modern major general. |
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| SAFraser |
| Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 11:20 am Post subject: |
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Shaman
Joined: 22 Oct 2003
Posts: 742
Location: Austin, Texas, USA
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Jeff,
You've given a measured and thoughtful reply, and I appreciate it.
I confess to some hesitation at responding too quickly to technical questions for fear of assuming flamee status myself. I will, as you suggest, be more intrepid.
And I really do understand that some posts do not deserve patient replies. My hope is that frustration will not be misdirected at posts that were actually sincere (if naive) questions.
Shirley
p.s. Anyone who is asking you privately for free help should be relegated to The Eternal Spam Bucket. |
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| jefflowrey |
| Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 11:44 am Post subject: |
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Grand Poobah
Joined: 16 Oct 2002
Posts: 19981
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| SAFraser wrote: |
| You've given a measured and thoughtful reply |
Nah.
I was yelling at you the whole time.
Can't tell intonation from text, remember?
  
_________________
I am *not* the model of the modern major general. |
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| kevinf2349 |
| Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 8:25 pm Post subject: |
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Grand Master
Joined: 28 Feb 2003
Posts: 1311
Location: USA
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Shirley
I believe that my comment was
| Quote: |
I don't get it, why is there a sudden run on people getting jobs they can't do?
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but it was also accompanied by a link pointing to a thread where the question was already dealt with.
Frankly it took me just a few seconds to find the link on this very site.
My comment wasn't a dig at anyone in particular, just an observation after a week where several posters (or maybe even the same one using different names) were implying they were asked (contracted maybe?) to do work on platforms they were not familiar with.
I don't blame individuals for this, I blame the firms for either :
a) Not providing adequate training or support for people new to these environments
or
b) Not checking that contractors are truly qualified to do the work required of them.
Of course if the employee has lied about their skills then the blame lands with the employee for bending the truth.
The very least I would expect of anyone that posts though is for them to have at least spent a little time using the search button or cracking a manual before asking a question. |
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| SAFraser |
| Posted: Sat Feb 17, 2007 10:39 am Post subject: |
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Shaman
Joined: 22 Oct 2003
Posts: 742
Location: Austin, Texas, USA
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Hey Kevin,
The thing is, I agree with the points you have expressed in your reply to me. Employers will shuffle MQ support to someone as though it can be a hobby, or grab any ol' contractor and then dump MQ on them.
And the "job I can't do" has actually happened to me. When I was hired a few years ago for my current job, I was hired as an MQ admin. The interview was strictly MQ questions. The very first afternoon on the job, my supervisor came and asked me if I would mind supporting WMQI too cause he decided to let the WMQI contractor go, effective the next day.  To add to the excitement, the systems people wouldn't let me have any rights to any servers for weeks and weeks. True story.
On the other hand (agreeing with your point about "searching first, asking later"), my first WMQI action was not to post to this forum asking "how do you write a message flow"?
Let's say, just for the sake of this discussion, that the poster in question was totally sincere, had just been dumped on, and was in a panic. Maybe in addition to posting here, he was also posting to a unix site and reading MQ manuals. Maybe his new supervisor was a jerk. In this context, your observation about people getting jobs they can't do would be adding more ick to any already icky day.
On the other hand, maybe you are right. Maybe the fellow had been posting all over the place. Maybe he was playing Solitaire while he waited for us to solve his problem.
But gosh, how can you tell, really? What if he had just been stuck into a situation similar to the one I experienced? Maybe those comments would be hard to take.
I admit, the glass is always half full for me. Always thinking the best of people and so forth. If sometimes we could be just a little more.... gentle... until we are sure the poster needs a swift kick.... that's what I am trying to suggest.
I really value your participation in this board, and your posts have helped me many times. I do appreciate you.
Shirley |
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| oz1ccg |
| Posted: Sat Feb 17, 2007 2:02 pm Post subject: |
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Yatiri
Joined: 10 Feb 2002
Posts: 628
Location: Denmark
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We who are posting mutch of the replies are doing it for free and in freetime. This is not an IBM sponsored and moderated chatroom/support site. I know a few for who it could be a part of their job role (unofficially ofcause). Some are IBMers more or less incognito.
Some of us like me are may be selective to respond, and are doing it only if we find the problem challanging or someone having an serious chrisis..... (and we've got the time to help).
Many times I just monitors the variours threads and are just trying to keep the inbox empty. Maybe I should add a MQ spamfilter, No way!
MQ is a too important intercommunication standard, so the great minds should try to help the less skilled specialists solving their problems, not solving their problems but by learning....
Like learning the naked woman to spin, and make clothes instead of just giving her clothes...
This reply is not meant as a offession of trying to hang anyone, just a: please keep the good tone here, so we can have some fun. And like still to answer/debate.
There are comming more and more "direct" attacks to direct answers; like search for "posts way too much", or "echo .. |runmqsc....."
Sometimes I'm wondering: what happens if the top 20 posters was silent for a week ?
Whould the others just take over answering ? I guess so. It's just like some are allmost living their live here on MQSeries.net. Anyway I'm proud of being part of this community.
So at last don't shoot us repliers when we're shortheaded or very direct.
And if you don't like the answer ask IBM the official way.
-- Lock it or Lose it --
_________________
Regards, Jørgen
Home of BlockIP2, the last free MQ Security exit ver. 3.00
Cert. on WMQ, WBIMB, SWIFT. |
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| bduncan |
| Posted: Sat Feb 17, 2007 6:47 pm Post subject: |
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Padawan
Joined: 11 Apr 2001
Posts: 1554
Location: Silicon Valley
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My personal philosophy is that if I think a question is stupid or is asking for someone else to do the poster's job for them, I just ignore it. Then I hope that someone with more patience than me will reply with a helpful answer 
I don't want ANYONE leaving the site over things like this, newbies and grandmasters alike. But to be honest, compared to many other sites and mailing lists I've been on, I think we're pretty tame. I don't think I've ever seen anything on here that I would call a flame war. But I hope the community will regulate itself, and that's why I'm happy people like Shirley speak up.
_________________
Brandon Duncan
IBM Certified MQSeries Specialist
MQSeries.net forum moderator |
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| vennela |
| Posted: Sun Feb 18, 2007 5:38 pm Post subject: |
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Jedi Knight
Joined: 11 Aug 2002
Posts: 4055
Location: Hyderabad, India
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| bduncan wrote: |
| My personal philosophy is that if I think a question is stupid or is asking for someone else to do the poster's job for them, I just ignore it. Then I hope that someone with more patience than me will reply with a helpful answer |
I can definitely adopt this one without a problem
| bduncan wrote: |
| I don't want ANYONE leaving the site over things like this, newbies and grandmasters alike. |
I don't want the site to go away either. One day the site was down and I couldn't find the support pac page on IBM website for 20 minutes, which I could have found it using mqseries.net in 20 seconds.
| oz1ccg wrote: |
| It's just like some are allmost living their live here on MQSeries.net |
I was like that until I stopped working on MQ and Workflow and couldn't keep up with the latest versions of the products.
| bduncan wrote: |
| But I hope the community will regulate itself, and that's why I'm happy people like Shirley speak up. |
Sure
Whatever it takes to keep the site running |
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| Vitor |
| Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2007 1:14 am Post subject: |
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Grand High Poobah
Joined: 11 Nov 2005
Posts: 26093
Location: Texas, USA
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My 2 cents:
There does seem to have been a rise over the last few weeks of really chimp questions, often accompainied by heartfelt pleas of "I'm new to MQ / programming / Unix". Now it's possible that's a perception caused by my increasingly old & grumpy outlook, but it is increasingly infuriating to get the same questions asked over and over, or to have questions asked which demonstrate a complete lack of MQ or indeed platform knowledge. The points made by kevinf2349 I can agree with, but we can't become a training service or a fall-back consultancy. Despite my suspicions about where the offending compainies are based, or their willingness to hire underqualified people to save money and intimidate them into doing jobs without training, which I have witnessed 1st hand.
Though I've never taught a naked woman to spin, the concept is attractive and is the way to go. With perhaps more restraint and politeness than I've shown in the past (see above re: old & grumpy) but if we don't spread the word they'll never learn. The comment about "get what you pay for" cuts both ways - the support from the board is free at point of use so these people can't complain they're not getting value for money. I'm not however advocating a paid board where support is linked to the amount of fee paid.
Though more donations to the board would I'm sure be welcome.
I'm just more of a glass half empty kinda guy.
_________________
Honesty is the best policy.
Insanity is the best defence. |
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