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| jefflowrey |
 Posted: Sat Apr 23, 2005 1:47 pm Post subject: A game for csmith to play with friends... |
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Grand Poobah
Joined: 16 Oct 2002
Posts: 19981
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Anyone want to place bets?
  
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I am *not* the model of the modern major general. |
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| csmith28 |
| Posted: Mon Apr 25, 2005 12:46 pm Post subject: |
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Grand Master
Joined: 15 Jul 2003
Posts: 1196
Location: Arizona
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The problems the assumption made in that article is, there is no such thing as "a constant environment".
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Yes, I am an agent of Satan but my duties are largely ceremonial. |
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| fjb_saper |
| Posted: Mon Apr 25, 2005 4:48 pm Post subject: |
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Grand High Poobah
Joined: 18 Nov 2003
Posts: 20756
Location: LI,NY
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But my friend this is where you err.
'Tis a terrible constant in the environment.
Alas its effects are tremendous
Its name quite wonderous : CHANGE !! |
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| bduncan |
| Posted: Mon Apr 25, 2005 5:02 pm Post subject: |
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Padawan
Joined: 11 Apr 2001
Posts: 1554
Location: Silicon Valley
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I'm curious to hear a creationist's perspective on something I consider to be evidence strongly supporting evolution - the fact that we have witnessed it.
Humans unfortunately (or fortunately!) don't reproduce very often. But bacteria do. Fruit flies do. And in controlled labratory environments it has been shown that genetic mutations arise, which sometimes result in superior genes. Just look at what the flu bacteria does. The genetic code is always changing, and once in a while, it results in superior genes (at least from the bacteria's point of view!) and we end up with a flu pandemic.
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Brandon Duncan
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| PGoodhart |
| Posted: Tue Apr 26, 2005 3:39 am Post subject: |
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Master
Joined: 17 Jun 2004
Posts: 278
Location: Harrisburg PA
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The thing that most people who see this whole arguement in evolution/creation terms miss is that they are not wholely exclusive. To the strick Darwinist I ask, Evolution is a marvelous thing, do you think it happened by accident? Having read actually Darwin's works, I think he is a lot closer to that belief then our current crop of extremists.
I even love to talk to the c. fundementalists, since they believe everything in the bible is exactly how/why/when. I usually bring up that God is perfect, everything he made is perfect, but it can't adapt to a changing enviroment? (Sparks, fire, smoke rises...)
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Patrick Goodhart
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| jefflowrey |
| Posted: Tue Apr 26, 2005 3:46 am Post subject: |
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Grand Poobah
Joined: 16 Oct 2002
Posts: 19981
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| PGoodhart wrote: |
| To the strick Darwinist I ask, Evolution is a marvelous thing, do you think it happened by accident? |
To ask this question, I think, is to miss the point of the article I posted.
Also, is it really reasonable to believe that there was any concious design behind the creation of your users? Are you really that bad a person?
| PGoodhart wrote: |
| Having read actually Darwin's works, I think he is a lot closer to that belief then our current crop of extremists. |
But Darwin was also writing at a time when the mearest hint of what he was writing about was pretty much illegal. So for him to soften his message at least a little bit is not surprising.
Also, like any good scientist, I expect he was a bit sceptical of his own conclusions.
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| PGoodhart |
| Posted: Tue Apr 26, 2005 3:53 am Post subject: |
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Master
Joined: 17 Jun 2004
Posts: 278
Location: Harrisburg PA
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All I am pointing out is that the acceptance of evolution is not mutually exclusive of practicing religion.
Even the Catholic Church has accepted evolution, about 60 years ago..
Lots of reasonable people in the gray and a bunch of fanatics on the ends...
I am continously amused by the conflict the media can create by fiddling an issue.
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Patrick Goodhart
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| jefflowrey |
| Posted: Tue Apr 26, 2005 4:00 am Post subject: |
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Grand Poobah
Joined: 16 Oct 2002
Posts: 19981
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| PGoodhart wrote: |
| All I am pointing out is that the acceptance of evolution is not mutually exclusive of practicing religion. |
I agree completely.
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| bower5932 |
| Posted: Tue Apr 26, 2005 6:25 am Post subject: |
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Jedi Knight
Joined: 27 Aug 2001
Posts: 3023
Location: Dallas, TX, USA
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http://www.geocities.com/greeneto/clayton/index.html - This is a series of letters between two people. One of them is John Clayton who was an atheist that converted to Christianity. He had some trouble resolving creation and evolution and these letters shed some light on his journey. You may or may not find them interesting.
Francis Schaeffer has also written a book on Genesis (Genesis in Space and Time) that I've found to be an excellent read. |
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| nathanw |
| Posted: Tue Apr 26, 2005 7:57 am Post subject: |
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Knight
Joined: 14 Jul 2004
Posts: 550
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the real question to ask is
In 100 years when none of us are here will we care? |
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| bduncan |
| Posted: Tue Apr 26, 2005 11:38 am Post subject: |
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Padawan
Joined: 11 Apr 2001
Posts: 1554
Location: Silicon Valley
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| Quote: |
the real question to ask is
In 100 years when none of us are here will we care? |
If everyone said that instead of actually discussing issues, we'd still be in the stone age
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| jefflowrey |
| Posted: Tue Apr 26, 2005 12:38 pm Post subject: |
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Grand Poobah
Joined: 16 Oct 2002
Posts: 19981
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| nathanw wrote: |
the real question to ask is
In 100 years when none of us are here will we care? |
How will we know?
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I am *not* the model of the modern major general. |
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| bower5932 |
| Posted: Tue Apr 26, 2005 1:08 pm Post subject: |
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Jedi Knight
Joined: 27 Aug 2001
Posts: 3023
Location: Dallas, TX, USA
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| Well, I plan on living at least another 100 years, so I'll know. |
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| fjb_saper |
| Posted: Tue Apr 26, 2005 6:33 pm Post subject: |
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Grand High Poobah
Joined: 18 Nov 2003
Posts: 20756
Location: LI,NY
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| jefflowrey wrote: |
| PGoodhart wrote: |
| All I am pointing out is that the acceptance of evolution is not mutually exclusive of practicing religion. |
I agree completely. |
In fact both rely at the core on an act of FAITH:
a) There was a big bang. Yes we can prove it but where did it come from ??
b) There is a God.
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| bduncan |
| Posted: Tue Apr 26, 2005 11:18 pm Post subject: |
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Padawan
Joined: 11 Apr 2001
Posts: 1554
Location: Silicon Valley
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| Quote: |
In fact both rely at the core on an act of FAITH:
a) There was a big bang. Yes we can prove it but where did it come from ??
b) There is a God.
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Which I think strikes right at PGoodhart's point. The two are not mutually exclusive. You can accept the big bang and evolution as fact, and still believe in God. At least, it seems possible to me, even if the major religions don't agree with me
It's not like I've run any experiments to determine whether natural selection is true. It's not like I've actually built a mass spectrometer and done carbon 14 dating on some fossils. I have to trust, er, take on faith, that the scientists who did conduct such experiments were telling the truth
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