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| smdavies99 |
 Posted: Mon Feb 17, 2014 6:06 pm Post subject: |
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Jedi Council
Joined: 10 Feb 2003
Posts: 6076
Location: Somewhere over the Rainbow this side of Never-never land.
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| Gralgrathor wrote: |
| mqjeff wrote: |
| I was suggesting, ever so gently, that "every developer you know" is a very elite set |
No they're not. They're a bunch of wankers, no better'n me. But they still understand you can't stick your hand in a jar without taking the lid off. |
Language please!
Not every developer:-
1) uses the debugger
2) has a tail on the error log (this is a new one for me I have to admit)
Each has their own style and method of working. Sure many more recent devs are only trained to use the debugger. Shame really because there are lotys of cases where the tool is simply not up to the job and you must use other methods.
If you are an experienced developer then you hardly need to look at the error log. I did the other day simply because some code mangled the output queue name and I needed to see exactly what form the mangling took. Other than that...? not very often. Perhaps you are right about the devs who work at the same place as you but that is no reason to slag them off in that way. If what you said were true then I'd be actively looking for another position.
Back on topic.
Any tool that can make your job easier as a developer is IMHO a good thing. Many sites lock down their Dev environment so hard that even using the debugger requires a miracle on a par with Moses parting the Red Sea. As for getting a logon so that you can run a usertrace? Don't even ask.
If sites were to let their devs read the error log (many don't for some inexplicable reason) then using a tool like this would improve productivity but.... we can dream on.
Now I have to to and repair the damage to the system after some IBM 'expert' hardened the system last night. Now nothing works. I fully expect he did nothing more than revoke world read access to a heap of directories. This is what goes for hardening in this part of the world.
_________________
WMQ User since 1999
MQSI/WBI/WMB/'Thingy' User since 2002
Linux user since 1995
Every time you reinvent the wheel the more square it gets (anon). If in doubt think and investigate before you ask silly questions. |
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| Gralgrathor |
| Posted: Tue Feb 18, 2014 12:46 am Post subject: |
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Master
Joined: 23 Jul 2009
Posts: 297
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| smdavies99 wrote: |
| Not every developer uses the debugger |
And certainly not if you've been with the program since the early days. Every desire to use integrated debuggers would have been squashed by now.
| smdavies99 wrote: |
| Not every developer uses the debugger has a tail on the error log |
I'm sure that what you're saying is true - or at least that you think that what you're saying is true. But I still cannot, for the life of me, figure out how you're going to develop anything without a tail on the error logs.
| smdavies99 wrote: |
| If you are an experienced developer then you hardly need to look at the error log |
You think that experienced developers just enter code that works straight away every time without checking? They don't make errors? No little oversights in their TDS sets that only pop up when they run a set of testdata and check the exceptions in the logs before they run a trace?
| smdavies99 wrote: |
| that is no reason to slag them off |
I don't need no stinkin' reason. I'm a WMB developer and I can do anything I like.
| smdavies99 wrote: |
| As for getting a logon so that you can run a usertrace? Don't even ask. |
True enough. You'll usually get just enough access to be able to browse logfiles, and you'll have to run your traces locally, which can be a real bitch. But providing access to logfiles in a webinterface won't change that. What you'd really need is a way to export generated traces through the Explorer or the web interface. Now that's an enhancement I would pay money for. Writing shell scripts around the mqsi commandline tools gets really boring after a couple of years.
| smdavies99 wrote: |
| some IBM 'expert' hardened the system |
Yeah, but wouldn't you want to be one? These guys get it all: the big money, the fast cars, the beautiful women, the early retirement... |
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| JosephGramig |
| Posted: Tue Feb 18, 2014 6:54 am Post subject: |
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Grand Master
Joined: 09 Feb 2006
Posts: 1244
Location: Gold Coast of Florida, USA
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Let's be more specific about "logs". There are runtime logs and user trace logs of the mqsitrace flavor. There is even sysout and syserr of the DFEs. All have useful information. Each can expose sensitive information.
For DEV and TEST, sure setup syslog.conf to direct info and up to a file in a directory where the developers can see it (by setting the g+s and setting a group owner on the directory and file that goes with the developers). |
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| MonkeyDoo |
| Posted: Tue Feb 18, 2014 7:00 am Post subject: |
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Novice
Joined: 05 Aug 2013
Posts: 17
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| Gralgrathor wrote: |
| smdavies99 wrote: |
| some IBM 'expert' hardened the system |
Yeah, but wouldn't you want to be one? These guys get it all: the big money, the fast cars, the beautiful women, the early retirement... |
Ever land in an airport and find yourself surrounded by police in body armor and automatic weapons? Trying to hail a "secure taxi"? Drinking only bottled water? Never leaving the hotel except to go to work and back? Getting stuck in a third world airport? |
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| Vitor |
| Posted: Tue Feb 18, 2014 7:16 am Post subject: |
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Grand High Poobah
Joined: 11 Nov 2005
Posts: 26093
Location: Texas, USA
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| Gralgrathor wrote: |
| But I still cannot, for the life of me, figure out how you're going to develop anything without a tail on the error logs. |
I can name 12 people on this site who believe they have this figured out.
| Gralgrathor wrote: |
| I'm a WMB developer and I can do anything I like. |
Not in a moderated forum you can't. Watch the language.
_________________
Honesty is the best policy.
Insanity is the best defence. |
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| smdavies99 |
| Posted: Tue Feb 18, 2014 6:20 pm Post subject: |
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Jedi Council
Joined: 10 Feb 2003
Posts: 6076
Location: Somewhere over the Rainbow this side of Never-never land.
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| MonkeyDoo wrote: |
| Gralgrathor wrote: |
| smdavies99 wrote: |
| some IBM 'expert' hardened the system |
Yeah, but wouldn't you want to be one? These guys get it all: the big money, the fast cars, the beautiful women, the early retirement... |
Ever land in an airport and find yourself surrounded by police in body armor and automatic weapons? Trying to hail a "secure taxi"? Drinking only bottled water? Never leaving the hotel except to go to work and back? Getting stuck in a third world airport? |
A nearly perfect description of where I am at the present.
Bottled Water - Yep
Hotel - Yep (FAR too many mozzies carrying Malaria to even think about going out at night)
Airport - Yep (Well almost, my flight home is 04:00 Saturday)
The IBM person who hardened the system is just about the same age and my eldest grandkid. viz, fresh out of University. His actions also killed another bunch of systems so I spent yesterday removing all his 'good' work so that by 21:00 local last night (as 14 hours of work by yours truly) we had most things running again.
Well done Sir!
 
_________________
WMQ User since 1999
MQSI/WBI/WMB/'Thingy' User since 2002
Linux user since 1995
Every time you reinvent the wheel the more square it gets (anon). If in doubt think and investigate before you ask silly questions. |
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| mqjeff |
| Posted: Wed Feb 19, 2014 3:42 am Post subject: |
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Grand Master
Joined: 25 Jun 2008
Posts: 17447
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It's easy to become an IBM expert.
Just get hired by IBM. |
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| Gralgrathor |
| Posted: Wed Feb 19, 2014 4:23 am Post subject: |
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Master
Joined: 23 Jul 2009
Posts: 297
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| JosephGramig wrote: |
| Let's be more specific about "logs" |
Trace logs have to be generated, right? Actually, I'd like something for that as well. Doing a run and then generating and formatting a trace seems a bit cumbersome. |
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| smdavies99 |
| Posted: Wed Feb 19, 2014 5:18 am Post subject: |
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Jedi Council
Joined: 10 Feb 2003
Posts: 6076
Location: Somewhere over the Rainbow this side of Never-never land.
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| Gralgrathor wrote: |
| to be generated, right? Actually, I'd like something for that as well. Doing a run and then generating and formatting a trace seems a bit cumbersome. |
Enable Usertrace - 1 line in a command/shell script
Disable, Extract and format the log - 3 lines in a script
Now what is hard about that?
The Big advantage of usertrace is that when you see somethings wrong, you have the history so you can go back and find out where it was and fix it.
Hey-ho, each to his own. but good luck trying to use the Debugger where I am currently based. You will find it impossible. Not allowed.
_________________
WMQ User since 1999
MQSI/WBI/WMB/'Thingy' User since 2002
Linux user since 1995
Every time you reinvent the wheel the more square it gets (anon). If in doubt think and investigate before you ask silly questions. |
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| Vitor |
| Posted: Wed Feb 19, 2014 5:48 am Post subject: |
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Grand High Poobah
Joined: 11 Nov 2005
Posts: 26093
Location: Texas, USA
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| smdavies99 wrote: |
| but good luck trying to use the Debugger where ... |
....it's a parser or message set / DFDL issue.
I confidently anticipate that IIBv13 will remove user trace facilities because that debugger will be so awesome it can debug anything.
And some sites will still bar access to it.
_________________
Honesty is the best policy.
Insanity is the best defence. |
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| Gralgrathor |
| Posted: Wed Feb 19, 2014 8:31 am Post subject: |
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Master
Joined: 23 Jul 2009
Posts: 297
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| smdavies99 wrote: |
| Now what is hard about that? |
O, don't get me wrong; I couldn't do anything without trace, anymore than I could work effectively without access to runtime- system and error logs 
But the format is rather dense. I often find myself applying a swath of regular expressions to the output just so I can read through it more easily.
But it still beats the debugger. Debuggers require you use your memory, since you don't have an overview of all historical states you can scroll through. And I don't have a memory. This is the 9nth time that I'm installing MQ7.5/IB9 on a clean ubuntu machine and I'm still making the same *** mistakes every *** time. |
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