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| exerk |
 Posted: Sun May 20, 2012 1:30 am Post subject: |
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Jedi Council
Joined: 02 Nov 2006
Posts: 6339
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| SAFraser wrote: |
| I believe that Oracle App Server has MQ JMS support (as an adapter?). |
Oracle AQ (Advanced Queuing) from what I remember from way back...
| SAFraser wrote: |
| Which I presume means that MQ jars are placed within the app installation itself, like in WAS? |
I don't remember having to do that with it, but memory blurs over time...
| SAFraser wrote: |
Bad, bad developers, compiling MQ jars into their code.  |
Fully agree, and they should be horse-whipped, made to run the gauntlet, tarred and feathered, then paraded through all IT departments in sack-cloth and ashes.
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It's puzzling, I don't think I've ever seen anything quite like this before...and it's hard to soar like an eagle when you're surrounded by turkeys. |
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| SAFraser |
| Posted: Sun May 20, 2012 4:39 am Post subject: |
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Shaman
Joined: 22 Oct 2003
Posts: 742
Location: Austin, Texas, USA
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Oracle AQ is a feature of Oracle Database. I'm not a huge fan.
Oracle App Server is another beast entirely, a competitor to WAS and other products that serve up a java runtime. It seems to be okay.
With Oracle AQ, we did a full client installation for the DBAs. (There was a lot of wide-eyed consternation on the part of the DBAs; imagine, some cheeky MQ admins installing software on a database server!)
We do have a current client who uses Oracle App Server. We provide a bindings file for their connection pleasure. Their connections are stable and they behave well at disconnection. I don't know how much of that is native to Oracle App Server's support of JMS and how much of it is good coding.
GeorgeCarey, This might be way more than you really care about at all!! |
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| exerk |
| Posted: Sun May 20, 2012 6:42 am Post subject: |
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Jedi Council
Joined: 02 Nov 2006
Posts: 6339
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| SAFraser wrote: |
Oracle AQ is a feature of Oracle Database. I'm not a huge fan.
Oracle App Server is another beast entirely, a competitor to WAS and other products that serve up a java runtime. It seems to be okay. |
Shirley, thank you for the clarification - another nugget of information for me to file away 
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It's puzzling, I don't think I've ever seen anything quite like this before...and it's hard to soar like an eagle when you're surrounded by turkeys. |
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| fjb_saper |
| Posted: Sun May 20, 2012 10:23 am Post subject: |
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Grand High Poobah
Joined: 18 Nov 2003
Posts: 20763
Location: LI,NY
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There is an oracle AQ-MQ bridge for the purists that want to deal only with PL-SQL and oracle AQ. It works fairly well but you will need a good oracle developer and a good MQ admin / developer to be able to get the finer details worked out (like UTF-8 ) on the message etc... 
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MQ & Broker admin |
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| George Carey |
| Posted: Mon May 21, 2012 11:15 am Post subject: It's all good |
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Knight
Joined: 29 Jan 2007
Posts: 500
Location: DC
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SAFraser said:
| Quote: |
| "...GeorgeCarey, This might be way more than you really care about at all!!" |
A bit more information than I was asking but it's all good.
(A little side digression of my own)
Just as and FYI, Oracle has two app server product offerings, and older legacy app server that was a bit of a carbuncle implementation of an app server that Oracle has improved over the years ... kind of like their original DBMS implementation which was 80% Larry Ellison vaporware hype and 20% actual code. Now it is about reversed. Now they bought Web Logic and now the WLS app server is their top of the line appserver but both still supported.
Oracle AQ is a full blown MOM technology and has a very nice attribute innate with its implementation. All its queues are nothing more than Oracle DB tables. It has a full JMS api compliant interface for appserver containers to use. And is the native J2EE message service component for their app servers. The nice innate attribute that comes with using Oracle as Database and Oracle AQ as the message service for their J2EE appservers is that for disaster recovery and site to site replication of database and message storage/repositories are one and the same entities.
Think about that for (more than) a moment and what really big advantage that has!! IBM's DB2 actually uses MQ sdr/rcvr channels in a DB2 product for database log shipping replication between sites for their DB2 database.
But what if you need to synchronize database updates and queue updates (as any business would that uses messaging) across sites for disaster recovery purposes? Even if you are replicating your database transaction logs across sites(i.e. log shipping) and at the same time replicating queuing log transactions across sites and the primary goes away which log database or queue takes precedents ... how do you synchronize. Say some (large) number of messages in queues, some were read and updated into the database transactionally some completed some not ... which of these transactions for the queues got replicated across from the logs and when, likewise for the database ... when restarting after primary failure at the disaster recovery site which queue messages need to be read and updated, which rolled back which already processed into the database. How is that synchronized??
Complicate this even further if not just disaster recovery scenario where one site is essentially passive/inactive but what if both sites were active and cross replicating for a live/live scenario.
Now think if all your data respositories(queues and tables) were in one data store, e.g. one database with its own log replication tools and software built into the product. All the above mention concerns/complications go away or more correctly are handled. That is what comes innate with Oracle AQ, Oracle AppServers and Oracle Databases all being used synergistically.
I have asked IBM MQ development if they could offer a product enhancement that would allow the implementation of queuing store to be implemented with database tables(DB2,Oracel, etc.) to eliminate this competitive advantage of Oracles, as an option mind you not a replacement but another storage option.
They have yet to see the value !!
Regards,
GTC
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"Truth is ... grasping the virtually unconditioned",
Bernard F. Lonergan S.J.
(from book titled "Insight" subtitled "A Study of Human Understanding") |
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| Vitor |
| Posted: Mon May 21, 2012 11:26 am Post subject: Re: It's all good |
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Grand High Poobah
Joined: 11 Nov 2005
Posts: 26093
Location: Texas, USA
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| George Carey wrote: |
| I have asked IBM MQ development if they could offer a product enhancement that would allow the implementation of queuing store to be implemented with database tables(DB2,Oracel, etc.) to eliminate this competitive advantage of Oracles, as an option mind you not a replacement but another storage option. |
Don't forget to post a link to your RFE so like-minded souls can vote.
| George Carey wrote: |
| They have yet to see the value !! |
In this brave new world enough votes could change their minds.
I have a cloud in m mind about how much speed you'd lose storing all this in a database rather than a file system. Not to say that negates the advantages you outline, but might be why IBM's a little cool on the idea.
Still, votes make prizes! 
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Honesty is the best policy.
Insanity is the best defence. |
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| mvic |
| Posted: Mon May 21, 2012 12:29 pm Post subject: Re: It's all good |
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Jedi
Joined: 09 Mar 2004
Posts: 2080
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| Vitor wrote: |
| I have a cloud in m mind about how much speed you'd lose storing all this in a database rather than a file system. Not to say that negates the advantages you outline, but might be why IBM's a little cool on the idea. |
A database makes it quick to store once, then find many times, based on the content of the thing stored.
MQ makes it quick to store once, then obtain once, in FIFO order.
These are very different things. There is not much overlap in the type of data model and algorithms needed. |
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| markt |
| Posted: Mon May 21, 2012 12:53 pm Post subject: |
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Knight
Joined: 14 May 2002
Posts: 508
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Buliding a message store ON TOP OF a database is very different than building a message store INSIDE a database.
As has been proved many times by real projects which have have attempted this, and as you have been told before, SQL is completely inappropriate for reliability and performance of messaging applications.
Oracle AQ does not use standard SQL; it has custom locking and extensions provided to it within the database. Those are not accessible to general messaging providers, and are not available within other databases. |
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| George Carey |
| Posted: Mon May 21, 2012 4:22 pm Post subject: DB2 then |
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Knight
Joined: 29 Jan 2007
Posts: 500
Location: DC
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| Quote: |
| "...Oracle AQ does not use standard SQL; it has custom locking and extensions provided to it within the database. ..." |
So who is saying use SQL? Ok, then have DB2 and any other database IBM owns or controls have the same custom locking and extensions. I mean it's not like IBM has ever been averse to doing proprietary extensions throughout its history.
GTC
_________________
"Truth is ... grasping the virtually unconditioned",
Bernard F. Lonergan S.J.
(from book titled "Insight" subtitled "A Study of Human Understanding") |
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| bruce2359 |
| Posted: Mon May 21, 2012 4:57 pm Post subject: |
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Poobah
Joined: 05 Jan 2008
Posts: 9475
Location: US: west coast, almost. Otherwise, enroute.
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WMQ stores messages in a propriety manner, with a limited API. I've been told that the folks at the WMQ factory are hesitant to expose messages to a relational DB and SQL due to the unpredictability of message storage/retrieval speed.
Yes, Message Properties exposes messages to SQL92; but it's a very limited subset of SQL, with exposure only to messages with Message Properties; and is a language construct applied to IBMs proprietary message storage.
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Lex Orandi, Lex Credendi, Lex Vivendi. As we Worship, So we Believe, So we Live. |
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