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| mqjeff |
 Posted: Wed Dec 14, 2011 5:56 am Post subject: |
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Grand Master
Joined: 25 Jun 2008
Posts: 17447
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| Ric-Tic wrote: |
| vitor wrote: |
| mqjeff wrote: |
| I believe that both lancelotlinc and I are in agreement that, if you've invested in WTX, you should throw it away at your earliest opportunity. |
This is a position I too would endorse. |
Until such time as DFDL 'Industry Packs' become available, say for EDI, FIX, SWIFT, ACH etc, I would expect WTX to remain as the primary option for those complex messages protocols |
I did say 'earliest opportunity' not 'immediately'. |
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| Vitor |
| Posted: Wed Dec 14, 2011 5:56 am Post subject: |
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Grand High Poobah
Joined: 11 Nov 2005
Posts: 26093
Location: Texas, USA
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| Ric-Tic wrote: |
| I would expect WTX to remain as the primary option for those complex messages protocols |
Unless you already have or plan to buy WMB, in which case the support pac is an attractive alternative to WTX.
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| bdebruin |
| Posted: Mon May 21, 2012 11:39 pm Post subject: |
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Novice
Joined: 14 Apr 2010
Posts: 12
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Your anti-WTX comments sound a bit biased.
If your a WMB developer you'll obviously choose eSQL over WTX, but suggesting customers throw away WTX because you don't know the tool sounds very naive.
WTX is faster at run time and faster to develop. It's compiled C and can parse & map complex files 50+ megs in 10 seconds.
If you have a good developer, complex maps can be completed in hours. A good developer/trainer can also teach basic WTX concepts in a few days and knowledge transfer complex mapping in a couple weeks.
It all comes down a good developer or a good trainer like it does for all tools.
WTX isn't going away just like EDI isn't going away. The launcher is legacy which why WTX is being integrated with WMB, WESB, datapower, and Sterling.
Barry DeBruin |
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| aspre1b |
| Posted: Mon May 21, 2012 11:56 pm Post subject: |
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Voyager
Joined: 05 Jul 2007
Posts: 78
Location: Coventry, UK
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You raise an interesting point: Is WTX quicker than broker at runtime to parse a message.
My experience is that Broker is somewhat quicker on lesser hardware compared to WTX in our live environment. This is for a mixture of XML and Swift messages. Would this be an issue with the WTX configuration or is this the 'norm'? |
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| lancelotlinc |
| Posted: Tue May 22, 2012 5:22 am Post subject: |
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Jedi Knight
Joined: 22 Mar 2010
Posts: 4941
Location: Bloomington, IL USA
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| bdebruin wrote: |
Your anti-WTX comments sound a bit biased.
If your a WMB developer you'll obviously choose eSQL over WTX, but suggesting customers throw away WTX because you don't know the tool sounds very naive.
WTX is faster at run time and faster to develop. It's compiled C and can parse & map complex files 50+ megs in 10 seconds.
If you have a good developer, complex maps can be completed in hours. A good developer/trainer can also teach basic WTX concepts in a few days and knowledge transfer complex mapping in a couple weeks.
It all comes down a good developer or a good trainer like it does for all tools.
WTX isn't going away just like EDI isn't going away. The launcher is legacy which why WTX is being integrated with WMB, WESB, datapower, and Sterling.
Barry DeBruin |
I do know the tool only too well. I have documented the WTX shortcomings elsewhere in this forum. I'll summarize for you here. WTX is not thread safe. The WTX compile product is deployable to only one architecture at a time. The source code that developers produce is stored in binary format not text. This prevents supervisors from approving the source code changes using vdiff tool from ClearQuest. It also prevents the use of history feature from ClearCase, since you cannot use the ClearCase tool to identify what changed. WTX compiles require manual, toolkit-oriented steps, whereas WMB compiles can be automated through Ant. As if these were not enough, there is a list of about two hundred similar significant architectural defects on the WTX product, if you care to look it up.
In the last two decades, I have worked for significant financial clients, and without exception, there are plans to remove WTX from production as soon as possible.
I make these statements "in the know". I have significant experience. You may like WTX. We won't hold that against you. But don't lie. WTX is NOT faster. WTX is painful, very painful.
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| bdebruin |
| Posted: Thu May 24, 2012 3:58 pm Post subject: |
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Novice
Joined: 14 Apr 2010
Posts: 12
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I don't think you'd like working in the EDI/HIPAA world. Most of the translation tools are relatively "painful" compared to writing line-by-line code.
In my opinion saying "WTX is painful" is more of an opinion than fact. I will concede that it can be painful to learn, but once you know it development is fast and runtime is too. I don't think you're saying that eSQL is faster than WTX at complex translations, but that it is faster for you personally to develop and better for simplier, smaller size files with a few loops verses 15-20 loops. I'd hate to write eSQL to parse and validate an 837, 856, or 811 and then have to watch it try to chunk through a 500 meg file.
I've been a WTX mapper since 1999 and I'll be the first to admit that I am totally biased. WTX is a great tool once you know it, but it's complex compared to scripting languages.
I agree with you that WTX is binary, so you can't do compares and you can't merge code using source control... it's not java. It could be considered a disadvantage, but every product is different and there are pros and cons to each. My last WMB and WESB projects we used eSQL/compute nodes for many things, but not for complex transformations.
The bulk of the WTX work out there these days is HIPAA and other EDI projects. Ii seems the main reason to go with other products comes down to cost many times. I know of several companies that moved to BizTalk for cost savings, but they still have WTX doing the majority of their complex transformations.
It'll be interesting to see if IBM keeps integrating WTX into WMB, WESB, Datapower.
Peace..
Barry DeBruin
debruinconsulting |
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| lancelotlinc |
| Posted: Fri May 25, 2012 5:06 am Post subject: |
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Jedi Knight
Joined: 22 Mar 2010
Posts: 4941
Location: Bloomington, IL USA
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My opinion has been that the name will survive, but the WTX product will go away and probably be replaced with a brand new offering. Much of the value of the WTX product is duplicated by WMB, as for example, the FileInput node. I expect that the new offering will have a migration utility to convert WTX maps over to the new architecture. Philosophically, I am technology agnostic. I don't mind using old technology. What is somewhat irritating to me is seeing people/companies who are starting fresh get locked into the arcane and painful WTX solution when there are better and more advanced solutions available.
SOA governance is big in places I have worked over the last couple of decades. As I have mentioned elsewhere, these are nationwide banks, insurance companies, credit card networks and chemical companies. Well-known household names. They invest alot around the ability to supervise and control the code that gets implemented. In my current assignment, which I have been here more than a year now, we are a total IBM shop. We have a site license for all IBM products.
To work on a piece of code, the team lead needs to open a BaseCM activity through IBM Rational ClearQuest and assign it to a developer. A developer cannot lock any source file for modification from IBM Rational ClearCase unless he has an approved BaseCM activity or a ClearQuest defect assigned to him/her. The developer then modifies the source file, and checks it in. After all modifications are complete, the developer marks the activity ready-for-review. The team lead reviews the changes then notifies the supervisor that an activity is needing promoted to "ReadyForBuild" status. The supervisor also reviews the source code and marks the changes approved, ready for build. Configuration Management team then promotes that code to the base tree and those source changes are included in the next build for Test environment. The changes are deployed and testers run automated (Rational Test Suite) regression tests against the code to see if it fixes the defect or adds the new function while not breaking other code.
The sore thumb in all this process are the WTX maps. They cannot participate in any of these review activities. Since WTX code cannot be governed like all the other SOA code, my clients have made the decision to remove WTX over time as maintenance activities allow.
WTX is useful as a stand-alone product when users or companies do not care about SOA governance. I don't know any future for the product where more governance is coming, such as HIPAA or banking.
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| Vitor |
| Posted: Fri May 25, 2012 5:20 am Post subject: |
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Grand High Poobah
Joined: 11 Nov 2005
Posts: 26093
Location: Texas, USA
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| lancelotlinc wrote: |
| WTX is useful as a stand-alone product when users or companies do not care about SOA governance. I don't know any future for the product where more governance is coming, such as HIPAA or banking. |
As the previous poster indicated, much of the WTX work comes from HIPPA & other EDI work (like banking). Having written ESQL to parse an 837, an 850 & an 810 I see the value.
My current site is a bank (among other financial activities) that does a lot of HIPPA work. We use WTX & manage governence quite nicely thank you. Your assertion that WTX does not fit into a governence model is broad. I'll agree that (as a binary) it doesn't directly fit into the model you've outlined.
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| bdebruin |
| Posted: Fri May 25, 2012 9:14 am Post subject: |
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Novice
Joined: 14 Apr 2010
Posts: 12
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[quote="aspre1b"]You raise an interesting point: Is WTX quicker than broker at runtime to parse a message.
My experience is that Broker is somewhat quicker on lesser hardware compared to WTX in our live environment. This is for a mixture of XML and Swift messages. Would this be an issue with the WTX configuration or is this the 'norm'?[/quote]
I think WMB is quicker if it's a small message since there's some overhead when calling a map. WTX is great for parsing, validating, and mapping complex messages/files and should only be the choice if you have complex transformations or large complex files. |
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| bdebruin |
| Posted: Fri May 25, 2012 9:18 am Post subject: Wrong board for WTX questions |
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Joined: 14 Apr 2010
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| lancelotlinc |
| Posted: Fri May 25, 2012 9:57 am Post subject: |
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Jedi Knight
Joined: 22 Mar 2010
Posts: 4941
Location: Bloomington, IL USA
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| bdebruin wrote: |
| aspre1b wrote: |
You raise an interesting point: Is WTX quicker than broker at runtime to parse a message.
My experience is that Broker is somewhat quicker on lesser hardware compared to WTX in our live environment. This is for a mixture of XML and Swift messages. Would this be an issue with the WTX configuration or is this the 'norm'? |
I think WMB is quicker if it's a small message since there's some overhead when calling a map. WTX is great for parsing, validating, and mapping complex messages/files and should only be the choice if you have complex transformations or large complex files. |
Not under load. If you have an application that processes greater than 100 TPS, WTX is way slower because it cannot scale. In some instances, you can only have one map per EG due to WTX's lack of thread safety and the EXIT bug. If your TPS is less than one, then maybe we could have a discussion about which is faster or slower. WTX cannot scale like WMB.
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| lancelotlinc |
| Posted: Fri May 25, 2012 9:57 am Post subject: Re: Wrong board for WTX questions |
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Jedi Knight
Joined: 22 Mar 2010
Posts: 4941
Location: Bloomington, IL USA
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| Vitor |
| Posted: Fri May 25, 2012 10:06 am Post subject: Re: Wrong board for WTX questions |
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Grand High Poobah
Joined: 11 Nov 2005
Posts: 26093
Location: Texas, USA
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| lancelotlinc wrote: |
Then ask the moderator to move the thread. |
As moderators, we do have significant powers. But if you look closely at the link (or indeed read it at all), you'll observe that it's a different web site to this forum.
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| lancelotlinc |
| Posted: Fri May 25, 2012 10:08 am Post subject: Re: Wrong board for WTX questions |
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Jedi Knight
Joined: 22 Mar 2010
Posts: 4941
Location: Bloomington, IL USA
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| Vitor wrote: |
| lancelotlinc wrote: |
Then ask the moderator to move the thread. |
As moderators, we do have significant powers. But if you look closely at the link (or indeed read it at all), you'll observe that it's a different web site to this forum. |
That was my point in the thinly veiled attempt at pointing out the humourously obvious.
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| Vitor |
| Posted: Fri May 25, 2012 10:16 am Post subject: Re: Wrong board for WTX questions |
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Grand High Poobah
Joined: 11 Nov 2005
Posts: 26093
Location: Texas, USA
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| lancelotlinc wrote: |
| Vitor wrote: |
| lancelotlinc wrote: |
Then ask the moderator to move the thread. |
As moderators, we do have significant powers. But if you look closely at the link (or indeed read it at all), you'll observe that it's a different web site to this forum. |
That was my point in the thinly veiled attempt at pointing out the humourously obvious. |
You need a thinner veil.
Or I need more moderator training. Training answers any issue.
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