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| Let's not be condescending in our responses |
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| mqrules |
 Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2005 9:15 am Post subject: Let's not be condescending in our responses |
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Centurion
Joined: 01 Jun 2005
Posts: 100
Location: US
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Hi all,
I just would like to say that I am very dissapointed in the condesending/ridiculing tone of the responses some of the listers give to some basic MQ questions.
We have to remember that once we were all beginners. We have to keep in mind that not everyone on the list is a seasoned MQer. New MQers will be joining the list on an ongoing basis. It is not realistic to expect only the questions posed by the experienced MQers.
So, please, if you know the answer and don't mind taking the time to respond, please do so. Otherwise, please refrain from showing your holier-than-thou attitude (so to speak) - IN ORDER NOT TO DISCOURAGE people new to MQ to approach mqseries.net for answers. I ,personally, have learned significant portion of my MQ knowledge from an MQ list. Sometimes, seeing the same questions and the same answers over and over again reinforces our knowledge, or correct the misunderstanding that we might have had. Sometimes, we think we know the answer with %100 accuracy only to find out, thru the posts, that our understanding of the subject matter was a bit faulty...
I find it very interesting that the same person's reponses on this list and those on mqseries@listserv... look as if they were authored by two different people. mqseries@listserv has always been very proffessional. I never have had to worry about being ridiculed about posing any kind of MQ issue (no matter how basic it may have seemed to some other people) on mqseries@LISTSERV; BUT NOT HERE!!!! (I can almost hear some shouting... to tell me to go bak to that list  ).It just would be so nice to keep this one at the same quality level as mqseries@LISTSERV too.
So, please if you are going to the trouble of typing your answer at all, why not make it more positive?
The bottom line is: LET'S BE MORE RESPECTFUL AND MORE CONSTRUCTIVE!!!
P.S. This is all I have to say on the subject and will not get into any kind of long arguments with anyone.
Yours respectfully.
mr |
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| jefflowrey |
| Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2005 9:22 am Post subject: Re: Let's not be condescending in our responses |
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Grand Poobah
Joined: 16 Oct 2002
Posts: 19981
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| mqrules wrote: |
| I just would like to say that I am very dissapointed in the condesending/ridiculing tone of the responses some of the listers give to some basic MQ questions. |
I think it is not fair to judge "tone" from written material.
_________________
I am *not* the model of the modern major general. |
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| hopsala |
| Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2005 10:00 am Post subject: |
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Guardian
Joined: 24 Sep 2004
Posts: 960
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| mqrules wrote: |
| We have to remember that once we were all beginners. We have to keep in mind that not everyone on the list is a seasoned MQer. New MQers will be joining the list on an ongoing basis. It is not realistic to expect only the questions posed by the experienced MQers. |
Don't worry, i'm not going to argue, just state my opinion; that's what this forum is for, right?
Indeed, we have all been beginners once, but let me describe to you what a beginner should look like, and indeed this is what I looked like ~5 years back (Ah memories!  ):
The beginner should read the books, he should spend at least a week just reading the manuals, installing a trial version on his computer and running all sorts of tests. He should try channels out, XMITQs, getting by CorrlID, and even fiddle around a bit with runmqdlq and triggering. Once he has that down, he can call himself an MQ Admin in-training.
Next step would be to start supporting the qmgrs he's responsible for. Naturally, something will go wrong - a channel goes down, a queue fills up - and he is understandibly lost for words or action; what should he do? Read the manuals. I assure you from personal experience that this is by far the *fastest* way to solve problems, and surely the best way to learn; any other method will mean that next time you still won't be able to solve it without assistance.
If encountering any problem, the beginner should at least know to perform what logic dictates, not specific-product logic, but real honest-to-god problem solving logic: Doesn't work here? Try the same somewhere else, the combo a+b doesn't work? try a seperately and try b, Doesn't work here And there? Try else here and there, worked before but not today? trace back what changed. I don't think this is too much to ask.
Now, if I thought it at all possible to help people without them knowing basic MQ, I would, but it's useless; it's like trying to explain to someone who doesn't know how to save his word documents how to edit AUTOEXEC.bat (pardon the old-world reference). There is no getting around the fundemental terminology and concept, it must be the basis of the discussion.
Anyway, I rarely see real derision here - I see many curt answers such as "read the manuals." or "don't post before you search" - and I find this to be perfectly legitimate; the curtness serves as a means to get the message through that this is a lesson that must be learned fast, not after a few trials. The border between this and ridicule is quite clear, and I believe most masters/grand-masters have indeed been able to maintain it. |
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| PGoodhart |
| Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2005 10:02 am Post subject: |
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Master
Joined: 17 Jun 2004
Posts: 278
Location: Harrisburg PA
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Here is a suggestion....
Let's just not answer any RTFM questions next week and see if the deluge of ridiculous questions subsides.
_________________
Patrick Goodhart
MQ Admin/Web Developer/Consultant
WebSphere Application Server Admin |
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| jefflowrey |
| Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2005 10:11 am Post subject: |
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Grand Poobah
Joined: 16 Oct 2002
Posts: 19981
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Also, despite your disclaimer, this is an entirely disrespectful post - in the fact that it can be summed up as "I can't believe how rude you people are!".
And then to claim that you have said your peace and will not hang around to defend it is, at best, disengenuous.
Also, pgoodhart -
What will happen is that all of the RTFM questions will fill up with a) wrong answers from other newbies, and b) many repetitions of "This is urgent! Please help me!" from the original poster.
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I am *not* the model of the modern major general. |
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| PGoodhart |
| Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2005 10:58 am Post subject: |
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Master
Joined: 17 Jun 2004
Posts: 278
Location: Harrisburg PA
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Jeff,
I know you are right. Amazing how many times the same question can be asked. If these people would just pay a little $ and take an MQ intro class from someone, or RTFM, 98% of the questions would cease. Most of the questions boil down to "I can't look up a code in the Messages manual"....
_________________
Patrick Goodhart
MQ Admin/Web Developer/Consultant
WebSphere Application Server Admin |
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| jasonJonas |
| Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2005 11:04 am Post subject: |
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Novice
Joined: 07 Sep 2005
Posts: 10
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i haven't been around long enough to understand the various personalities around here or provide a great deal of meaningful input regarding mq. however, i've been around forums and lists of all kinds over the past (holy schnikies! has it been *that* long?) 15 years and while it may be a bit disrespectful TO YELL AND TELL SOMEONE TO GO RTFM, i find it more disrespectful and thoughtless of someone to pose a question and expect an answer about something that, had they taken the time and initiative, they could've easily found the answer. even better is the person who poses problem A and asks for the code to solve it. jeesh! gimme a break or pay my consulting fees and i'll be happy to solve the problem.
knowledgeable people participate in forums like this one because they are passionate about the subject matter. they want to share their knowledge with those who seek it, but like everyone else, they don't want to be taken advantage of or taken for granted.
there's a certain amount of due-dilligence that's expected - even demanded. when it's apparent someone hasn't done their due-dilligence, a slap upside the melon is in order.
jason |
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| bduncan |
| Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2005 1:07 pm Post subject: |
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Padawan
Joined: 11 Apr 2001
Posts: 1554
Location: Silicon Valley
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I like the old saying "If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything."
However, a newbie faced with stone-cold silence as opposed to a "RTFM" reply will probably go away just as unhappy.
Of course we want to be as professional as possible here, and I know I don't like being on the receiving end of condescending reply - even if I deserve it 
But if people are making distinctions between the listserv and this site, let me offer a few more:
1. There's more than 10 times the number of posts on this site each month than the listserv gets. Which means there's more than 10 times the number of condescending posts.
2. This site is easily found via Google, while the listServ is not, so my guess is that the greenest newbies end up here. So it wouldn't suprise me if a larger proportion of RTFM type questions are asked here. But that's not to say we should slap people who do.
3. Searching on this site is MUCH easier than searching on the ListServ (just use site:mqseries.net on Google!) so it does bother me to see so many people asking the same questions over and over when the answer is just a click away...
_________________
Brandon Duncan
IBM Certified MQSeries Specialist
MQSeries.net forum moderator |
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| bower5932 |
| Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2005 1:23 pm Post subject: |
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Jedi Knight
Joined: 27 Aug 2001
Posts: 3023
Location: Dallas, TX, USA
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| bduncan wrote: |
| 3. Searching on this site is MUCH easier than searching on the ListServ (just use site:mqseries.net on Google!) so it does bother me to see so many people asking the same questions over and over when the answer is just a click away... |
Well, I didn't know the 'site:mqseries.net' trick. It has been a good day! |
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| hopsala |
| Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2005 5:50 pm Post subject: |
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Guardian
Joined: 24 Sep 2004
Posts: 960
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bduncan, a few thoughts on how to reduce the newbie flood and get them to search before posting:
1. Since stickeys are quite unnoticable for a newcomer, why not have a HUGE link in the front window (and possibly the forums window), pointing to a concise but informative "how and when to post" document; if you wish I volunteer to write it, although others here may be more qualified (jeff? ). This FAQ will also have a full list of all WMQ documents and what topic each contains.
2. Also we should probably post a FAQ - but not a normal FAQ, but a list of links to handy threads; for example, we'd have a "triggering faq" with links to a few threads with common probs (triggering the initq...) and general design. No sense in re-writing the manuals, and every possible explanation for any WMQ topic has already been written.
3. When a new user registers he will be shown the document mentioned in 1, and the location of the FAQ.
I know similar documents have already been written, so we can compile the doc and faq from them, but for now they're too hard to find - it should be out there where no one can miss it. |
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| PeterPotkay |
| Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2005 6:06 pm Post subject: |
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Poobah
Joined: 15 May 2001
Posts: 7722
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| Code: |
IF NEW TOPIC BUTTON PRESSED
IF POSTER < 50 POSTS
DISPLAY POPUP ASKING IF SEARCH BUTTON HAS BEEN CONSIDERED
ELSE
CONTINUE
END-IF
ELSE
CONTINUE
END-IF
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Ah, I miss the COBOL days........
_________________
Peter Potkay
Keep Calm and MQ On |
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| PGoodhart |
| Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2005 3:26 am Post subject: |
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Master
Joined: 17 Jun 2004
Posts: 278
Location: Harrisburg PA
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Here is a non-conferentational stock answer for use instead of RTFM.
"Dear poster, While your question may be quite valid, the best answer may be for you to make an additional effort and read the wonderful manuals, avaliable on IBM's site, and also provided via the documentation button on the top of this site. MQ is a very complicated, and encompassing topic, and really needs an understanding that can't be easily transfered in a few sentences. Please remember that if you give a man a fish you feed him for a day, but if you teach a man to fish you feed him for a lifetime. If you read the documentation and find that you still have questions, then you should search the existing posts using the search link to see if an existing post has the information you need. If you still have questions, or issues, or find an inconsistency with the documentation, then by all means post a question. You will find that you will have a better understanding of your own question, and be able to articulate it better, greatly increasing our ablitiy to help you.
Thanks for you time.
Regards...
"
_________________
Patrick Goodhart
MQ Admin/Web Developer/Consultant
WebSphere Application Server Admin |
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| Michael Dag |
| Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2005 9:57 am Post subject: |
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Jedi Knight
Joined: 13 Jun 2002
Posts: 2607
Location: The Netherlands (Amsterdam)
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so my 2 cents... why not...
everybody is welcome! the more people here (and using MQ) the better, except there seems to be a new 'breed' of people coming along who don't read, don't try to understand, just want answers and then move on...
I can't blame them, but survival in these times depends on your ability to adapt yourself... so search for answers already given, if not found ask nicely and hopefully figure out the rest yourself.
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Michael
MQSystems Facebook page |
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| javagate |
| Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2005 10:24 am Post subject: |
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Disciple
Joined: 15 Nov 2004
Posts: 159
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If you need help and want an answer then you should learn to put up with the reply you get or sign up and pay for a IBMLINK account. Although IBM may not be of much help in the matter. Look at it from a professional image standpoint. Don't form an impression of the reply you get. Don't let the reply influence you. It's free help any way you look at it.
Peace out
_________________
WebSphere Application Server 7.0 z/OS &
MQ 6.0. I work with WebSphere in the real world not in some IBM lab. |
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| EddieA |
| Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2005 11:01 am Post subject: |
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Jedi
Joined: 28 Jun 2001
Posts: 2453
Location: Los Angeles
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And for some of these people, sending a PM doesn't help their cause. I've had some great ones following a "RTFM" or "Don't double post" reply. One person, no names, even suggested that if I can't help them, I should quit the forum.
Cheers,
_________________
Eddie Atherton
IBM Certified Solution Developer - WebSphere Message Broker V6.1
IBM Certified Solution Developer - WebSphere Message Broker V7.0 |
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