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| csmith28 |
 Posted: Fri May 27, 2005 3:44 pm Post subject: On the eve of the Memorial Day Weekend here in the US..... |
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Grand Master
Joined: 15 Jul 2003
Posts: 1196
Location: Arizona
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Let us not forget to take some time off from drinking beer and attending picnics to observe a moment of silence in honor of those who have made personal sacrafices to protect the United States of America and the Freedoms that we enjoy.
All gave some.
Some gave all. 
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Yes, I am an agent of Satan but my duties are largely ceremonial. |
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| zpat |
| Posted: Sat May 28, 2005 12:14 am Post subject: |
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Jedi Council
Joined: 19 May 2001
Posts: 5866
Location: UK
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What you mean like the British in WW1 and WW2? 
Incidentally the UK has only just finished paying back the loans to the USA which it had to take out in WW2 to purchase American military goods in order to defend the free world when no-one else would. |
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| bduncan |
| Posted: Wed Jun 01, 2005 9:58 am Post subject: |
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Padawan
Joined: 11 Apr 2001
Posts: 1554
Location: Silicon Valley
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Come on, show me the receipt for that last payment 
But seriously, I find it hard to believe that nobody "forgave" those debts long ago...
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Brandon Duncan
IBM Certified MQSeries Specialist
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| zpat |
| Posted: Wed Jun 01, 2005 12:16 pm Post subject: |
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Jedi Council
Joined: 19 May 2001
Posts: 5866
Location: UK
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It's true I tell you! It's taken 60 years to pay back the USA and the debt was one of the (many) reasons for Britain's post war economic decline.
Check out this article:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2087-1602670,00.html
VE Day – and at last our war debt is over
Maurice Chittenden
AS Britain celebrates the 60th anniversary of victory over Germany on VE Day, the government is finally preparing to pay the last of the war debt owed to the United States.
The American forces who helped Winston Churchill to defeat the Nazis may have been “overpaid, oversexed and over here” but the money that Britain borrowed from the US government is overdue.
Gordon Brown’s Treasury officials will write cheques totalling £43.5m — equivalent to 94p for every adult — over the next few months in final settlement of a £1 billion loan taken out in 1945 and worth more than £50 billion today.
It should have been repaid by 1999 but governments deferred annual payments six times, mostly in the hard-up 1970s. Brown is committed to pay it off by 2006. |
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| bduncan |
| Posted: Thu Jun 02, 2005 1:24 pm Post subject: |
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Padawan
Joined: 11 Apr 2001
Posts: 1554
Location: Silicon Valley
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See, we let them defer payment a bunch of times and we didn't even send the collection agency after them!
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| fjb_saper |
| Posted: Thu Jun 02, 2005 1:59 pm Post subject: |
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Grand High Poobah
Joined: 18 Nov 2003
Posts: 20756
Location: LI,NY
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And how is Tony's help for George in Irak any different from the collection agency ??
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| zpat |
| Posted: Thu Jun 02, 2005 11:35 pm Post subject: |
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Jedi Council
Joined: 19 May 2001
Posts: 5866
Location: UK
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I don't think the Brits send the Yanks (or Kuwaitis) a bill when they offer military help - that's the difference (between friendship and trade?)....
Last edited by zpat on Fri Jun 03, 2005 7:42 am; edited 1 time in total |
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| jefflowrey |
| Posted: Fri Jun 03, 2005 3:30 am Post subject: |
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Grand Poobah
Joined: 16 Oct 2002
Posts: 19981
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You really should rethink associating the United Kingdom with freedom and the free world.
I'm sure our friends in India do not think much of the U.K's track record in these areas, nor most of the rest of the world!
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I am *not* the model of the modern major general. |
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| Nigelg |
| Posted: Fri Jun 03, 2005 6:28 am Post subject: |
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Grand Master
Joined: 02 Aug 2004
Posts: 1046
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That was a little while ago now.
The imperial legacy, when the UK (more or less) voluntarily handed over power to the Indian people, helped transform India into the world's largest democracy, in terms of numbers of people.
The dismantling of most of the British Empire in the 1940s to the 1960s was carried out with little bloodshed. In nearly all cases the previous colony became a member of the British Commonwealth, which flourished until relatively recently. It is unlikely that countries would have been willing to be part of such an organisation if the handover of power to the inhabitants of the country was not also accompanied by goodwill by both parties.
I do not agree with zpat's rather bitter remarks about the US during the war. It would have been relatively simple for the US to have stayed out of the European war, standing back and letting the British and the Germans slug it out. This indeed was the view of many prominent politicians in the US, including Joseph Kennedy - "Britain wil lhave its neck wrung like a chicken". Churchill's visit to the US swung the tide of political opinion towards helping Britain - "Some chicken - some neck". You have to imagine that said with a growl. Thank God for Roosevelt, who had the vision to realise that if Hitler won, then he would not rest until he had conquered the world, and that the US should become a friendly power to Britain during the dark days of 1940-41.
Yes, the US did sell Britain guns, ships and food. How much worse for Britain would it have been if they had refused to sell them at any price?
I wholeheartedly agree with Chris's original post, and I would like to expand on it...
Honour those who have made personal sacrifices to protect the United States of America and the rest of the free world to defend the Freedoms that we all enjoy. |
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| zpat |
| Posted: Fri Jun 03, 2005 7:37 am Post subject: |
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Jedi Council
Joined: 19 May 2001
Posts: 5866
Location: UK
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If Britain had given the Nazis time to perfect their jet bomber and their atomic bomb - they would have used it on the rest of the world and certainly the Zionist capital (in their eyes) of New York would have been leveled. The Nazis were perhaps 12 months from having this ability - a very close thing indeed (and real WMDs, not imagined ones!).
WW2 and the cost in economic terms meant Britian moving from being a superpower to being a relatively poor developed country. For example the USA forced the UK to open up Empire markets to American goods as part of the price of the "lend-lease" arrangement. So that the undamaged American industry was able to dominate post-war trade.
I'm not bitter - indeed half my family are Americans but when it comes to sacrifices the Americans sometimes forget how fortunate they were and are to have the highest standard of living in the world.
Having said that, since WW2 the USA has intervened on behalf of freedom far more and of course at some considerable cost both personal and otherwise. |
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| bduncan |
| Posted: Fri Jun 03, 2005 3:09 pm Post subject: |
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Padawan
Joined: 11 Apr 2001
Posts: 1554
Location: Silicon Valley
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Two points:
1. To retain our official state of neutrality, we couldn't simply give weapons and equipment to Britain and Russia. But we did go the extra step of offering loans, rather than just asking for the cash up front. We have to remember the situation in which the lend-lease program was created. America had an isolationist policy in place and was official neutral.
2. Everything I have read about German attempts to build an atomic bomb suggest that their scientists missed a key aspect of the chain reaction process which meant that they believed it would require an enormous amount of fissible material to have critical mass. This basically stopped the research in its tracks because it appeared unfeasible. Show me some realiable source that says otherwise. I simply do not believe the idea that they were 12 months away from having one. Just compare the amount of resources and money Germany put into its atomic weapons research versus the Manhattan project...
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| zpat |
| Posted: Fri Jun 03, 2005 10:41 pm Post subject: |
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Jedi Council
Joined: 19 May 2001
Posts: 5866
Location: UK
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The Nazis did very well on missile and jet technology - indeed their top man subsequently ran the US Apollo program. If they had not had the war to divert resources and attention, their progress on atomic weapons might have progressed faster - we'll never know for sure. They could have delivered a "dirty" bomb within months though.
I saw an interesting program on TV recently about the Nazi jet aircraft - they had some amazing prototypes - one of which was very similar in appearance to the current stealth bomber (B2). |
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| Hari |
| Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2005 8:44 pm Post subject: |
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Centurion
Joined: 21 Nov 2002
Posts: 117
Location: USA
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[quote]You really should rethink associating the United Kingdom with freedom and the free world.
I'm sure our friends in India do not think much of the U.K's track record in these areas, nor most of the rest of the world! [/quote]
Right said Jeff 
[quote]The imperial legacy, when the UK (more or less) voluntarily handed over power to the Indian people, helped transform India into the world's largest democracy, in terms of numbers of people.
[/quote]
Everyone knows the truth... |
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| ydsk |
| Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2005 2:09 pm Post subject: |
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Chevalier
Joined: 23 May 2005
Posts: 410
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How did the UK help India grow in numbers ( population ) . I can't understand it.
But if we do a root-cause analysis of the long running bitter relations of India with it's close neighbour Pakistan, it's obvious. The UK was responsible for the division of India based on religion ( their infamous divide-and-rule policy) and the bitterness between India/Pakistan never ends.
India and Pakistan are spending a huge portion of their budget every year on military stuff just to be prepared in case...which would otherwise be used for other development activities in the 2 developing countries.
All I am saying is the British rule never helped India do any better. |
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| mqmhr |
| Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2005 9:31 pm Post subject: |
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Centurion
Joined: 28 Dec 2004
Posts: 105
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While transfrmation to democracy has been influenced by the British, transformation to largest is purely based on Indian effort
ysdk, I agree with your opinion that the British employed Divide & Rule policy that has resulted in bloodshed and hostilty between India/Pak and to an extent, within India itself.
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| All I am saying is the British rule never helped India do any better. |
I do not agree with this statement completely. Amidst other things, the world's largest railway network would not have been possible if not for the excellent infrastructure laid down during British rule in the early 1900s. Also, Indians' effectiveness in English language communication, which presently gives them an edge over the Chinese, is to be highly attributed to the British rule.
These are just a few examples, I am sure there are a lot more of them.All I am saying is that although British rule has been detrimental to India's development in some aspects, it has also been favourable in certain other aspects. |
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