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| SAFraser |
 Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 6:44 pm Post subject: |
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Shaman
Joined: 22 Oct 2003
Posts: 742
Location: Austin, Texas, USA
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On the Unix board to which I belong, there is a Newbies forum and newbies are definitely encouraged to post there and it seems (to me) to work.
I have thought, from time to time, that we might try that. I often do not have the knowledge to answer the more complicated posts, but I could and would answer many of the newbie posts (if the jedi council didn't always beat me to it!).
I bet there are a number of us who would be willing to work a Newbie forum (or Newbie forums in several areas, MQ, WMB, etc.), leaving the senior folks free to concentrate on the more interesting questions.
In such an arrangement, I think the mods should feel very free to move posts in and out of the Newbie forum as they see fit.
Just an idea..... |
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| jefflowrey |
| Posted: Wed Apr 16, 2008 3:54 am Post subject: |
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Grand Poobah
Joined: 16 Oct 2002
Posts: 19981
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Newbies forum? 
I don't think it will do anything to prevent threads from people who haven't taken the time to do the basics before posting, in any of the forums.
_________________
I am *not* the model of the modern major general. |
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| SAFraser |
| Posted: Wed Apr 16, 2008 4:06 am Post subject: |
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Shaman
Joined: 22 Oct 2003
Posts: 742
Location: Austin, Texas, USA
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No, it certainly won't prevent trout-worthy questions.
It would only separate them from the real questions and relieve the more senior moderators from a duty to deal with them constantly.
That's all I was driving at. |
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| jefflowrey |
| Posted: Wed Apr 16, 2008 4:08 am Post subject: |
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Grand Poobah
Joined: 16 Oct 2002
Posts: 19981
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| SAFraser wrote: |
No, it certainly won't prevent trout-worthy questions.
It would only separate them from the real questions and relieve the more senior moderators from a duty to deal with them constantly.
That's all I was driving at. |
No, that's not what I mean. Yes, a lot of newbies will self-select into the Newbies forum, and this is good.
I mean that a lot of people will self-select against the newbies forum, assuming that they are professionals and have worked with MQ for a year or two now... and still fail to be professional enough to do their homework first.
_________________
I am *not* the model of the modern major general. |
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| SAFraser |
| Posted: Wed Apr 16, 2008 6:27 am Post subject: |
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Shaman
Joined: 22 Oct 2003
Posts: 742
Location: Austin, Texas, USA
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Mr. Poobah,
This made me laugh! In the case you describe, the mod would just slap that question back to newbie land where it belonged! Regardless of whether the poster was a newbie or not.
Of course, with all this said, I have had zero minutes this morning to look at any posts except this one....
Shirley |
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| bruce2359 |
| Posted: Wed Apr 16, 2008 6:43 am Post subject: |
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Poobah
Joined: 05 Jan 2008
Posts: 9469
Location: US: west coast, almost. Otherwise, enroute.
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When I began this journey (when dynosaurs roamed the earth), I would sit in a cube next to the more-senior tech guy. He would tell me to RTFM; and demand that I phrase my questions more precisely. I would learn by listening, observing, and occasionally participating in "the discussion."
I'm thinking of this post site as a workplace. In a real workplace, would we separate the experts from the newbies, artificially creating barriers to the learning process? That would be counter-productive.
I believe we've stumbled on one of those perceived problems that doesn't need a fix.
_________________
I like deadlines. I like to wave as they pass by.
ב''ה
Lex Orandi, Lex Credendi, Lex Vivendi. As we Worship, So we Believe, So we Live. |
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| Vitor |
| Posted: Wed Apr 16, 2008 7:02 am Post subject: |
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Grand High Poobah
Joined: 11 Nov 2005
Posts: 26093
Location: Texas, USA
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| bruce2359 wrote: |
| When I began this journey (when dynosaurs roamed the earth) |
I think we started at the same time. Though in the company I worked for we'd have thought cubes luxury.
| bruce2359 wrote: |
| I agree that telling someone to read the manual - without specifying which manual - is flat rude. Better to name the manual, or provide a url link. Even better: quote some text from the manual to shed some light on the issue. |
| bruce2359 wrote: |
| I would sit in a cube next to the more-senior tech guy. He would tell me to RTFM; |
If he was like my guy, he never actually mentioned which manual.
| bruce2359 wrote: |
| and demand that I phrase my questions more precisely |
This is an important point. Many of the questions on the forum should be subjected to exactly this process; we should eliminate/filter the "how to put message" posts. The question is how, or how to shape them into better questions.
IHMO the sticky "How to ask questions the smart way" still contains the best advice for the newbie questioner.
_________________
Honesty is the best policy.
Insanity is the best defence. |
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| jsware |
| Posted: Wed Apr 16, 2008 7:49 am Post subject: |
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Chevalier
Joined: 17 May 2001
Posts: 455
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| jefflowrey wrote: |
Newbies forum?
I don't think it will do anything to prevent threads from people who haven't taken the time to do the basics before posting, in any of the forums. |
Here here. One possible way to stop "newbie" posts outside the "newbie forum" is to bar newbies from posting outside (say less than 50 posts or even higher - what's the level after which you move from "newbie" to the next "level" just below your avatar?)
_________________
Regards
John
The pain of low quaility far outlasts the joy of low price. |
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| bruce2359 |
| Posted: Wed Apr 16, 2008 8:00 am Post subject: |
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Poobah
Joined: 05 Jan 2008
Posts: 9469
Location: US: west coast, almost. Otherwise, enroute.
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| 50 posts or even higher |
Will they need to be meaningful and sincere posts? Or just posts? Does this approach make the underlying issue more or less convoluted?
_________________
I like deadlines. I like to wave as they pass by.
ב''ה
Lex Orandi, Lex Credendi, Lex Vivendi. As we Worship, So we Believe, So we Live. |
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| jsware |
| Posted: Wed Apr 16, 2008 8:44 am Post subject: |
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Chevalier
Joined: 17 May 2001
Posts: 455
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| bruce2359 wrote: |
| Will they need to be meaningful and sincere posts? Or just posts? |
Meaningful/sincere posts are difficult to quantify. Wouldn't plain old post count be an easy way to do this (though not 100% ideal)
_________________
Regards
John
The pain of low quaility far outlasts the joy of low price. |
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| bruce2359 |
| Posted: Wed Apr 16, 2008 8:53 am Post subject: |
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Poobah
Joined: 05 Jan 2008
Posts: 9469
Location: US: west coast, almost. Otherwise, enroute.
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Sorry. My not-so-subtle comment was about setting an arbitrary count of something.
A good newbie would figure this out, and circumvent it.
_________________
I like deadlines. I like to wave as they pass by.
ב''ה
Lex Orandi, Lex Credendi, Lex Vivendi. As we Worship, So we Believe, So we Live. |
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| jsware |
| Posted: Wed Apr 16, 2008 11:26 pm Post subject: |
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Chevalier
Joined: 17 May 2001
Posts: 455
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| bruce2359 wrote: |
Sorry. My not-so-subtle comment was about setting an arbitrary count of something.
A good newbie would figure this out, and circumvent it. |
True but it would take "a while" to post say 50 or 75 posts, which they can do only to other newbies in the newbies forum and would probably get noticed. It would certainly stop the "Hello, I am new to MQ, please tell me how to put a message"
_________________
Regards
John
The pain of low quaility far outlasts the joy of low price. |
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| manicminer |
| Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 1:06 am Post subject: |
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Disciple
Joined: 11 Jul 2007
Posts: 177
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| scottj2512 wrote: |
| bruce2359 wrote: |
Sorry. My not-so-subtle comment was about setting an arbitrary count of something.
A good newbie would figure this out, and circumvent it. |
True but it would take "a while" to post say 50 or 75 posts, which they can do only to other newbies in the newbies forum and would probably get noticed. It would certainly stop the "Hello, I am new to MQ, please tell me how to put a message" |
Or result in every newbie posting their own thread and replying 50 times to get their post count high enough  .
Plus on a personal note, I don't have many posts, and I've been quite helpful in the past (at least I think so!) and wouldn't want to be relegated to a newbie only forum just because I don't reply very often!
edit: I really don't think people should read post counts and use that to infer expertise. If jefflowrey moved email address and needed to create a new account would you really want to ban him from posting until he'd posted 75 times in the newbie section? I have seen several people who I know work at IBM posting here with very low posting counts, I'm sure you wouldn't want to block them either.
edit2: real world example, user PhilBlake obviously works on MQ from this post: http://www.mqseries.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=211655#211655 but only has a post count of 27. |
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| bruce2359 |
| Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 8:29 am Post subject: |
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Poobah
Joined: 05 Jan 2008
Posts: 9469
Location: US: west coast, almost. Otherwise, enroute.
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May I offer a fundamental question or two here?
Are the real or perceived issues sufficient to demand changes to the post site?
Can we live with some of the language and interpersonal style issues, with only an occasional slap on the wrist and an admonition to behave better?
_________________
I like deadlines. I like to wave as they pass by.
ב''ה
Lex Orandi, Lex Credendi, Lex Vivendi. As we Worship, So we Believe, So we Live. |
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| mvic |
| Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 8:54 am Post subject: |
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Jedi
Joined: 09 Mar 2004
Posts: 2080
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| bruce2359 wrote: |
| Can we live with some of the language and interpersonal style issues, with only an occasional slap on the wrist and an admonition to behave better? |
Agree. I didn't count too many people agreeing we had a Problem that needs fixing. All I'd say is
- please don't make it difficult for people to offer help
- please don't make it difficult for people to ask for help |
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