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| aditya.aggarwal |
 Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2010 7:18 am Post subject: |
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Master
Joined: 13 Jan 2009
Posts: 252
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An additional thought:
It is far easier to ask someone else, than to do the research and testing yourself.
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| There is a proverb (I paraphrase): "Give a man a fish and he will eat today; teach a man to fish, and he will eat for a lifetime." |
Giving aditya.aggarwal an answer is giving him/her a fish. Teaching hin/her to research and testing skills will last throughout a lifetime. |
I agree with you....But not applicable in my case... I have posted this question after doing all research/tests for longtime in my local system . Now i can see that those tests advised by you and conducted by ShashiVarunGupta already...
Its only due to time constraint i am not able to reply before
Otherwise i definitely post my answers..
I had gone thorugh this link also..
http://www.mail-archive.com/mqseries@akh-wien.ac.at/msg10458.html
Still my question is same .... What is the need of seed message for SCRQ for a newly creted queue manager on Unix and Windows.
Bruce 2359 wrote:
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| From all of this, I gathered (assumed) that the mysterious message in the queue is a "seed" message put there by the clustering software at some point - either when the qmgr is created OR when it was first started. |
Not exactly!!!
Please note that for Z/OS queue manager where you created SCRQ manually does not need this Seed message in this queue....
This was also part of my research....  |
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| bruce2359 |
| Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2010 7:47 am Post subject: |
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Poobah
Joined: 05 Jan 2008
Posts: 9472
Location: US: west coast, almost. Otherwise, enroute.
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A wild guess is just a belief until you research and test to validate your belief - which you have now done.
As a consultant, I never use the "wild guess" term.
Rather, until I'd done the research/testing/validation process, I would say something like "I believe that the mysterious message in the queue is a "seed" message." Or, more likely, I'd say that I will do some research, and get back to you.
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| bruce2359 |
| Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2010 8:00 am Post subject: |
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Poobah
Joined: 05 Jan 2008
Posts: 9472
Location: US: west coast, almost. Otherwise, enroute.
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| Please note that for Z/OS queue manager where you created SCRQ manually does not need this Seed message in this queue.... |
You have now added another issue to this discussion - a rather irrational issue in my opinion - that of manually creating the SCRQ.
There is a difference between does not need and does not have this seed message... Does clustering still work after you have deleted and redefined the SCRQ? If you are not using clusters, why are you asking this question at all?
The advice here and in much of the documentation is to leave the SYSTEM. objects untouched. If you violate this advice, the discussion changes.
_________________
I like deadlines. I like to wave as they pass by.
ב''ה
Lex Orandi, Lex Credendi, Lex Vivendi. As we Worship, So we Believe, So we Live. |
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| aditya.aggarwal |
| Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2010 8:28 am Post subject: |
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Master
Joined: 13 Jan 2009
Posts: 252
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Quote:
Please note that for Z/OS queue manager where you created SCRQ manually does not need this Seed message in this queue....
You have now added another issue to this discussion - a rather irrational issue in my opinion - that of manually creating the SCRQ. |
We will discuss it in seprate thread later... 
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| There is a difference between does not need and does not have this seed message... Does clustering still work after you have deleted and redefined the SCRQ? If you are not using clusters, why are you asking this question at all? |
I deleted this seed message from SCRQ.. as to delete this message i have to kill the amqrrmfa process so i bounced my queue manager to bring this process back.... but this have put this message back in to SCRQ again...
this message bascically put by amqrrmfa process in SCRQ during the start of queue manager[if message is not present in this queue]
its already explained by shashivarungupta in his previous posts....
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The advice here and in much of the documentation is to leave the SYSTEM. objects untouched. If you violate this advice, the discussion changes |
So I don't have right to understand or ask the internal processing\coding\Architecture of MQ software which is not documented anywhere ????!!!!!!!! |
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| mqjeff |
| Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2010 8:45 am Post subject: |
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Grand Master
Joined: 25 Jun 2008
Posts: 17447
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| aditya.aggarwal wrote: |
| So I don't have right to understand or ask the internal processing\coding\Architecture of MQ software which is not documented anywhere ????!!!!!!!! |
Pretty much, no, you don't. MQ is copywritten and licensed software that involves a number of IBM patents and other intellectual property.
If it's not part of the public documentation, then it's either mistakenly not documented or private and internal to the product and you either don't have a right to know it or it is subject to change. The only proper way to find out if something is any of those or to find out more detail about anything undocumented is to open a PMR.
Do you know internal details about how Excel stores records in it's files? Do you know internal details about how your email program sorts messages or performs spam filtering?
Attempts to determine internal details about how a licensed product - from *anyone* , not just from IBM - could cause you to violate the terms of your license and potentially make you subject to legal penalty or action. |
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| bruce2359 |
| Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2010 8:58 am Post subject: |
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Poobah
Joined: 05 Jan 2008
Posts: 9472
Location: US: west coast, almost. Otherwise, enroute.
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| Z/OS ... this message bascically put by amqrrmfa process |
First you ask about z/OS, then you refer to amqrrmfa - a Windoze/UNIX process.
Please, oh please!
_________________
I like deadlines. I like to wave as they pass by.
ב''ה
Lex Orandi, Lex Credendi, Lex Vivendi. As we Worship, So we Believe, So we Live. |
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| Vitor |
| Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2010 9:19 am Post subject: |
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Grand High Poobah
Joined: 11 Nov 2005
Posts: 26093
Location: Texas, USA
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| aditya.aggarwal wrote: |
| So I don't have right to understand or ask the internal processing\coding\Architecture of MQ software which is not documented anywhere ????!!!!!!!! |
Aside from the intelectual property issues of reverse engineering someone's software, the question comes back to why understand or ask? Someone on your site is paying IBM a lot of money for this software, and they are almost certainly doing so because of what WMQ does not how it does it. I doubt that they're interested in this information any more than they care how Windows manages memory internally. They only care about that when they get a blue screen of death, so until you get a problem with clustering why worry?
So what value would knowing the answer to this question add to your organisation? When whoever pays you asks what you've done this week/month/year/billing or apprasial period how will this fit into their grand scheme?
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Honesty is the best policy.
Insanity is the best defence. |
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| bruce2359 |
| Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2010 9:39 am Post subject: |
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Poobah
Joined: 05 Jan 2008
Posts: 9472
Location: US: west coast, almost. Otherwise, enroute.
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I'm all in favor of curiousity. I support asking how and why things work the way they do, and whay happens when we break them.
But, the right to know something is very different from the right to ask something. WMQ software is proprietary to IBM. IBM leases it to you for its intended use.
There is also a difference between 'how does this work?' and 'exactly how does this work?'
WMQ behaves as it is documented in the manuals. If it doesn't, open a PMR. What isn't documented in the manuals is exactly how WMQ does its thing internally.
For example: exactly and precisely how are messages stored on disk? (This varies by platform.) The answer is proprietary. IBMs obligation is to provide the means to put messages to a queue and get them from a queue. How to achieve this is well-documented in the APR and APG manual. How to manage queues on disk is documented in the platform-specific System Admin manuals.
_________________
I like deadlines. I like to wave as they pass by.
ב''ה
Lex Orandi, Lex Credendi, Lex Vivendi. As we Worship, So we Believe, So we Live. |
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| aditya.aggarwal |
| Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2010 11:07 am Post subject: |
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Master
Joined: 13 Jan 2009
Posts: 252
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| Attempts to determine internal details about how a licensed product - from *anyone* , not just from IBM - could cause you to violate the terms of your license and potentially make you subject to legal penalty or action. |
I am asking questions using trial version...
Moreover i was trying to understand the use of the seed message in MQ Clustering and thought that someone will able to explain me the use of this message...
I think that one can learn all this kind of stuff in product support with IBM only and not in production support...
Doing reverse engineneering[not on client servers] of someone's software is not bad... if you are doing it from knwoledge prospective ... It provides you numerous kind of scenarios and learnings.... |
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| Vitor |
| Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2010 11:17 am Post subject: |
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Grand High Poobah
Joined: 11 Nov 2005
Posts: 26093
Location: Texas, USA
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| aditya.aggarwal wrote: |
| I am asking questions using trial version... |
You seem to have been posting questions on this forum longer than the trial version is allowed to be used.
| aditya.aggarwal wrote: |
| Moreover i was trying to understand the use of the seed message in MQ Clustering |
Again I ask why.
| aditya.aggarwal wrote: |
| I think that one can learn all this kind of stuff in product support with IBM only and not in production support... |
Because IBM owns the software.
| aditya.aggarwal wrote: |
| Doing reverse engineneering[not on client servers] of someone's software is not bad... |
It is bad and normally illegal. I think even the trial license mentions it's not allowed.
_________________
Honesty is the best policy.
Insanity is the best defence. |
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| aditya.aggarwal |
| Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2010 11:44 am Post subject: |
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Master
Joined: 13 Jan 2009
Posts: 252
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aditya.aggarwal wrote:
I am asking questions using trial version...
You seem to have been posting questions on this forum longer than the trial version is allowed to be used. |
That stmt was applicable for this post only..
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aditya.aggarwal wrote:
Moreover i was trying to understand the use of the seed message in MQ Clustering
Again I ask why |
Why the sky is blue?.............. just for curosity i said in my first post....
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aditya.aggarwal wrote:
Doing reverse engineneering[not on client servers] of someone's software is not bad...
It is bad and normally illegal. I think even the trial license mentions it's not allowed. |
What is the cold start of queue manager? isn't a reverse engineering? |
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| bruce2359 |
| Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2010 11:53 am Post subject: |
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Poobah
Joined: 05 Jan 2008
Posts: 9472
Location: US: west coast, almost. Otherwise, enroute.
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| I am asking questions using trial version... |
Makes no difference whatsoever whether it's a trial version or production. The behavior is exactly the same for trial and prod; and it is all documented in the manuals.
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| Moreover i was trying to understand the use of the seed message in MQ Clustering and thought that someone will able to explain me the use of this message... |
I appreciate your curiousity. You've asked, we've speculated, you've demanded, we either don't know exactly (other than it seeds the SCRQ with required cluster infor) or can't say due to non-disclosure agreements.
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| I think that one can learn all this kind of stuff in product support with IBM only and not in production support... |
You can learn as much as you like, with the tools that the product supplies, IBM offers, or you acquire from other vendors.
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| Doing reverse engineneering [not on client servers] of someone's software is not bad... if you are doing it from knwoledge prospective ... It provides you numerous kind of scenarios and learnings.... |
Good? Bad? You agreed to a license for specific use (and to the exclusionof all other uses), and for a specific time-period.
Read carefully the license you agreed to when you downloaded the product; and follow the agreement. If memory serves, it's for a 90-day trial; and not two 90-day trials, or three. If memory serves, re-installing the trial copy, or downloading a seond trial copy, also violates the agreement.
There is a slippery slope when it comes to software. In my capacity as a consultant, I advise clients to adhere to the license. It is good citizenship, and appropriate business behavior. Being a student, or just curious, does not alter the terms and conditions of the agreement.
_________________
I like deadlines. I like to wave as they pass by.
ב''ה
Lex Orandi, Lex Credendi, Lex Vivendi. As we Worship, So we Believe, So we Live. |
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| aditya.aggarwal |
| Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2010 12:02 pm Post subject: |
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Master
Joined: 13 Jan 2009
Posts: 252
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| There is a slippery slope when it comes to software. In my capacity as a consultant, I advise clients to adhere to the license. It is good citizenship, and appropriate business behavior. Being a student, or just curious, does not alter the terms and conditions of the agreement. |
will read the agreement again for reverse enginerring clause... |
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| bruce2359 |
| Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2010 12:17 pm Post subject: |
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Poobah
Joined: 05 Jan 2008
Posts: 9472
Location: US: west coast, almost. Otherwise, enroute.
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| will read the agreement again for reverse enginerring clause... |
Read the agreement again. and look specifically for what behavior is allowd and what is forbidden - not just whether reverse engineering is mentioned.
Please keep in mind that there is an appropriate and intended use for a given product. What you believe is appropriate use might differ from your current and future employers.
If you believe that IBM is required to disclose proprietary information to satisfy your curiousity, you are mistaken.
There are a wide variety of posts here where a user attempted to use a component for other than its intended purposes (as it is documented). When the attempt fails (or worked for a while, but failed at the next release or update), IBMs response was and remains: not supported, use at your own risk. (Mis-)Use of MsgId and CorrelId fields in the MQMD are classic examples.
_________________
I like deadlines. I like to wave as they pass by.
ב''ה
Lex Orandi, Lex Credendi, Lex Vivendi. As we Worship, So we Believe, So we Live. |
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| Vitor |
| Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2010 1:48 pm Post subject: |
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Grand High Poobah
Joined: 11 Nov 2005
Posts: 26093
Location: Texas, USA
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| aditya.aggarwal wrote: |
| What is the cold start of queue manager? isn't a reverse engineering? |
What does the cold start procedure tell you about the software? Any more than a warm start does?
Now I'm curious.
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Honesty is the best policy.
Insanity is the best defence. |
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